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Subject: RE: [ws-rx] Gil's proposal for i021
I don't understand how you reached your interpretation of the text I quoted. Message level subject goes to far IMO. I understand we're talking about reliable messaging, but why must it match the flexibility of WSDL in terms of how it is applied? I can't envision any practical application to tweek it by individual messages on the endpoint. So going to message level seems like it would open a lot of other potential problems in terms of conditions we would need to clarify. What is the benefit of making it that flexible? Who are we helping? What are we enabling? I just don't see it. Marc Goodner Technical Diplomat Microsoft Corporation Tel: (425) 703-1903 Blog: http://spaces.msn.com/mrgoodner/ -----Original Message----- From: Anish Karmarkar [mailto:Anish.Karmarkar@oracle.com] Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 12:05 PM To: Marc Goodner Cc: Gilbert Pilz; Patil, Sanjay; ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: Re: [ws-rx] Gil's proposal for i021 Marc Goodner wrote: > Just expanding on the subject level, from section 4.1.2 on Endpoint > Policy Subject in WS-PolicyAttachment [1]: > > > > "An Endpoint Policy Subject applies to behaviours associated with an > entire endpoint of > > the service, irrespective of any message exchange made." > Not a policy expert, but my interpretation is that I don't think that precludes us from defining assertions that apply to only in messages or out-message. WS-PolicyAttachment framework defines a framework, but the assertion definer defines the semantics of the assertion. I.e., it should be ok to say that my BAZ assertion means that only in-bound messages are reliable -- and that applies to the entire endpoint (irrespective of the message exchanges or operations). Having said that. I don't think Gil's proposal goes far enough. Yes, it works quite well for the most common case (one-way, request-response). But when we go to WSDL 2.0, this looks rather short-sighted. It seems to me that the policy assertion subject should be 'message' -- which provides the granularity that provides the most flexibility. After all we are talking about reliable messaging. My $.02 -Anish -- > > > To me that seems to say we can't declare that it doesn't apply to > inbound or outbound messages that are part of the endpoint. If that is > what you want you would use operation level subject. I still think > endpoint subject is what you would almost always want, but we've been > talking about this long enough that I can see a case for operation. > > > > 1 http://specs.xmlsoap.org/ws/2004/09/policy/ws-policyattachment.pdf > > > > Marc Goodner > > Technical Diplomat > > Microsoft Corporation > > Tel: (425) 703-1903 > > Blog: http://spaces.msn.com/mrgoodner/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* Gilbert Pilz [mailto:Gilbert.Pilz@bea.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 01, 2006 2:35 PM > *To:* Marc Goodner; Patil, Sanjay; ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org > *Subject:* RE: [ws-rx] Gil's proposal for i021 > > > > Comments in line . . . > > > > - gp > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* Marc Goodner [mailto:mgoodner@microsoft.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 01, 2006 1:10 PM > *To:* Patil, Sanjay; Gilbert Pilz; ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org > *Subject:* RE: [ws-rx] Gil's proposal for i021 > > Two immediate concerns I have here. > > > > One, I don't think it is right to say the AS and AD have to use RM. > It is the RMS and RMD that use RM so I think the original text is > correct. I also don't see how this relates to the multiple endpoints > via one RMS/RMD as you say below. In that case isn't the original > text still more accurate? Still either way this is probably > splitting hairs, it doesn't change that the assertion is there or > what it means. > > > > The RMS and RMD don't **use** RM they **implement** RM. They are the > things that implement the protocol described in the WS-RM spec. When > you are talking about describing policy in something like WSDL you > are indicating if/how you will make use of the facilities that the > RMS and RMD provide. > > > > Two, I don't think even with two different assertions we can define > them to apply just to inbound or outbound messages. I'm fairly > certain that WSDL 1.1 and WS-PolicyAttachment prevent that scoping. > > > > I'm not sure I understand why this would be the case. Can you expand? > > > > Marc Goodner > > Technical Diplomat > > Microsoft Corporation > > Tel: (425) 703-1903 > > Blog: http://spaces.msn.com/mrgoodner/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* Patil, Sanjay [mailto:sanjay.patil@sap.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 01, 2006 7:27 AM > *To:* Gilbert Pilz; ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org > *Subject:* [ws-rx] Gil's proposal for i021 > > > > > > Thanks to Gil for making a concrete proposal. Hopefully this leads > to a discussion on the list. > > > > I have changed the subject line to indicate the issue number. I > think folks have better memory of issue numbers than AI numbers. > > > > Thanks, > > Sanjay > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* Gilbert Pilz [mailto:Gilbert.Pilz@bea.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 23:01 PM > *To:* ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org > *Subject:* [ws-rx] RE: Action Item #0078 > > In light of the (pending) resolutions to i086 and i087 it seemed > simpler to present my proposal in the form of complete drafts of > the WS-RM Policy specification. Attached are two PDF documents. > One is a clean version of what the WS-RM Policy spec would look > like with my proposed changes. The other contains change bars > between my proposal and the current editors draft of WS-RM > Policy (cd-02 with Marc's clean ups applied). > > > > You will note that my proposal includes the proposed resolutions > to i086 and i087. There was no simple way to present my ideas > without doing this. > > > > You may also note that I have changed line 93 from: > > > > "The RM policy assertion indicates that the RM Source and RM > Destination MUST use WS-ReliableMessaging [WS-RM > <outbind://153/#WSRM>] to ensure reliable delivery of messages." > > > > to: > > > > "In general a RM policy assertion indicates that the Application > Source and Application Destination MUST use WS-ReliableMessaging > [WS-RM <outbind://153/#WSRM>] to ensure reliable delivery of > messages". > > > > I did this because I think that policy assertions have nothing > to do with sequences or the entities that maintain them (i.e. > the RMS and RMD) except that they indicate that some, > unspecified sequence may or must be used to ensure the delivery > of inbound or outbound messages. I think this confusion over > endpoints (and the policies attached to those endpoints) and > sequences lay at the heart of our difficulties with the idea of > multiple endpoints with different policies sharing the same > sequence. This change may be considered by some to be the > resolution to a separate issue. If anyone has any objections > I'll back it out and go through the process of raising a > separate issue and making a separate proposal to address it. > > > > - gp >
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