I
would agree. There are gaps in both approaches that need to be clarified and
addressed. REST approaches have helped come up with SOA oriented applications
that encompass the client side, important to domains like OMTP address. SOA
developments in the telecom domain must encompass this client side dimension
even further. If WS had been pervasive in browsers environments, web 2.0 would
have simply leveraged them. But that comes with gaps as well especially around
interoperable trust models that need to be addressed. End result should be to
address the convergence, or reconcilement, of these requirements
explicitly.
marc
IMO, we would fall way
short (to the point that the work may not be relevant enough) if we do NOT
include REST. Judge merely by the discussion on this exchange alone, by
excluding one or the other – in particular for this 1st TC, will turn
away an entire camp. I think subsequent TC can then focus on one or the other,
or even specific aspects of WS application, or specific aspects of REST
application – but that would be wrong for the “gap measuring”
TC.
Michael
From: Orit
Levin [mailto:oritl@microsoft.com] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 4:00
PM To: Anthony Nadalin;
lucia.gradinariu@lggsolutions.com Cc: Abbie Barbir;
asoat-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org; Ronco Enrico; Giordano,Michael (Michael);
HANANE BECHA; Bilel Jamoussi; John Phillips; Joao Girao; Marco Carugi; Brenner,
Michael Ralf (Michael); Sabbouh,Marwan; Paul Knight; Pierre Tane; Natale,Bob;
Amardeo Sarma; Stephane H Maes; John Storrie; UNMEHOPA, Musa (Musa) Subject: RE: [asoat-discuss]
TC-charter-October-9-08-clean.doc
I
must say that I am bewildered now…
We
all would agree that there is a place for both WS-* and REST to benefit telecom
services. That being said, this Telecom Member Section started as
“Profiling/Extending WS for Telecom”. “Web 2.0” addition was inserted in the
last month or two and has never been really discussed by the group – at least
neither on the mailing lists nor it has been captured in the f2f
minutes.
There
are other initiatives that work directly on Web 2.0 for Telecom. Take a look at
http://www.omtp.org/Bondi/ . As far as
I know, this group submitted its work to either OASIS or 3WC already… Do you
know more details about that? Do we REALLY want to extend our scope to address
REST too?
Orit.
From: Anthony
Nadalin [mailto:drsecure@us.ibm.com] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 12:12
PM To:
lucia.gradinariu@lggsolutions.com Cc: Abbie Barbir;
asoat-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org; Ronco Enrico; Giordano,Michael (Michael);
HANANE BECHA; Bilel Jamoussi; John Phillips; Joao Girao; Marco Carugi;
Brenner,Michael Ralf (Michael); Sabbouh,Marwan; Orit Levin; Paul Knight; Pierre
Tane; Natale,Bob; Amardeo Sarma; Stephane H Maes; John Storrie; UNMEHOPA,Musa
(Musa) Subject: RE:
[asoat-discuss]
TC-charter-October-9-08-clean.doc
I like that
!
Anthony Nadalin | Work 512.838.0085 | Cell 512.289.4122
lucia.gradinariu---10/13/2008 01:54:01 PM---There are
many reasons why Web 2.0 can not be lumped under SOA. I suggest we either stick
with SOA or append "and other Informa
From:
|
lucia.gradinariu@lggsolutions.com
|
To:
|
Anthony Nadalin/Austin/IBM@IBMUS,
"Stephane H Maes"
<STEPHANE.MAES@oracle.com>
|
Cc:
|
"Abbie Barbir"
<abbieb@nortel.com>, asoat-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org, "Ronco
Enrico" <enrico.ronco@telecomitalia.it>, "Giordano,Michael
\(Michael\)" <giordano@avaya.com>, "HANANE BECHA"
<hanane.becha@nortel.com>, "Bilel Jamoussi"
<jamoussi@nortel.com>, "John Phillips" <jap@nortel.com>, "Joao
Girao" <joao.girao@nw.neclab.eu>, "Marco Carugi"
<marco.carugi@nortel.com>, "Brenner,Michael Ralf \(Michael\)"
<mrbrenner@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Sabbouh,Marwan"
<ms@mitre.org>, "Orit Levin" <oritl@microsoft.com>, "Paul
Knight" <paul.knight@nortel.com>, "Pierre Tane"
<ptane@nortel.com>, "Natale,Bob" <RNATALE@mitre.org>, "Amardeo
Sarma" <Sarma@nw.neclab.eu>, "John Storrie"
<storrie@nortel.com>, "UNMEHOPA,Musa \(Musa\)"
<unmehopa@alcatel-lucent.com>
|
Date:
|
10/13/2008 01:54
PM
|
Subject:
|
RE: [asoat-discuss]
TC-charter-October-9-08-clean.doc
|
There are many reasons why Web
2.0 can not be lumped under SOA. I suggest we either stick with SOA or append
"and other Information Technologies" , like: "Identifying Gaps in how SOA and other Information
Technologies Can Fulfill Telecommunications
Requirements"
Lucia
-------- Original Message
-------- Subject: RE: [asoat-discuss]
TC-charter-October-9-08-clean.doc From: Anthony Nadalin
<drsecure@us.ibm.com> Date: Mon, October 13, 2008 12:05 pm To:
lucia.gradinariu@lggsolutions.com Cc: "Abbie Barbir"
<abbieb@nortel.com>, asoat-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org, "Ronco
Enrico" <enrico.ronco@telecomitalia.it>, "Giordano,Michael
(Michael)" <giordano@avaya.com>, "HANANE BECHA"
<hanane.becha@nortel.com>, "Bilel Jamoussi"
<jamoussi@nortel.com>, "John Phillips" <jap@nortel.com>, "Joao
Girao" <joao.girao@nw.neclab.eu>, "Marco Carugi"
<marco.carugi@nortel.com>, "Brenner,Michael Ralf (Michael)"
<mrbrenner@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Sabbouh,Marwan" <ms@mitre.org>,
"Orit Levin" <oritl@microsoft.com>, "Paul
Knight" <paul.knight@nortel.com>, "Pierre Tane"
<ptane@nortel.com>, "Natale,Bob" <RNATALE@mitre.org>, "Amardeo
Sarma" <Sarma@nw.neclab.eu>, "Stephane H
Maes" <STEPHANE.MAES@oracle.com>, "John Storrie"
<storrie@nortel.com>, "UNMEHOPA,Musa (Musa)"
<unmehopa@alcatel-lucent.com>
But lets put that in the
perspective of SOA, as there is nothing preventing folks from using REST based
protocols for SOA, just like there is nothing preventing folks from using Web
Services. So I would think that we should remove Web 2.0 and focus on the gaps
of SOA for telecom and if the Web 2.0 issues come up then great but to limit
this to REST and not include Web Services is a mistake (thus just not include
either in the name)
Anthony Nadalin | Work 512.838.0085 | Cell
512.289.4122
lucia.gradinariu---10/13/2008
12:03:27 PM---Some non-marketing interest in Web
2.0:
From:
|
lucia.gradinariu@lggsolutions.com
|
To:
|
"Stephane H Maes"
<STEPHANE.MAES@oracle.com>
|
Cc:
|
asoat-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org, "Ronco Enrico"
<enrico.ronco@telecomitalia.it>, "Giordano,Michael \(Michael\)"
<giordano@avaya.com>, "HANANE BECHA"
<hanane.becha@nortel.com>, "Bilel Jamoussi"
<jamoussi@nortel.com>, "John Phillips" <jap@nortel.com>, "Joao
Girao" <joao.girao@nw.neclab.eu>, "Marco Carugi"
<marco.carugi@nortel.com>, "Brenner,Michael Ralf \(Michael\)"
<mrbrenner@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Sabbouh,Marwan"
<ms@mitre.org>, "Orit Levin" <oritl@microsoft.com>, "Paul
Knight" <paul.knight@nortel.com>, "Pierre Tane"
<ptane@nortel.com>, "Natale,Bob" <RNATALE@mitre.org>, "Amardeo
Sarma" <Sarma@nw.neclab.eu>, "John Storrie"
<storrie@nortel.com>, "UNMEHOPA,Musa \(Musa\)"
<unmehopa@alcatel-lucent.com>, Anthony Nadalin/Austin/IBM@IBMUS,
"Abbie Barbir"
<abbieb@nortel.com>
|
Date:
|
10/13/2008 12:03
PM
|
Subject:
|
RE: [asoat-discuss]
TC-charter-October-9-08-clean.doc
|
Some non-marketing interest in
Web 2.0: As feedback from architects in Tier1s SDP projects, they are
concerned with using WS in cases such as exposing services across Service
Providers domains due to high cost of development and testing, they prefer no
coding/QA if possible. Alternative proposals are simpler plain Html/Java script
or Web 2.0 interfaces and they work on embeding problem management and other
operational aspects into that. Lucia
-------- Original
Message -------- Subject: RE: [asoat-discuss]
TC-charter-October-9-08-clean.doc From: Stephane H Maes
<STEPHANE.MAES@oracle.com> Date: Mon, October 13, 2008 8:13 am To:
Anthony Nadalin <drsecure@us.ibm.com>, Abbie
Barbir <abbieb@nortel.com> Cc: asoat-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org,
Ronco Enrico <enrico.ronco@telecomitalia.it>, "Giordano,Michael
(Michael)" <giordano@avaya.com>, HANANE BECHA
<hanane.becha@nortel.com>, Bilel Jamoussi <jamoussi@nortel.com>,
John Phillips <jap@nortel.com>, Joao Girao
<joao.girao@nw.neclab.eu>, lucia.gradinariu@lggsolutions.com, Marco
Carugi <marco.carugi@nortel.com>, "Brenner,Michael Ralf
(Michael)" <mrbrenner@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Sabbouh,Marwan"
<ms@mitre.org>, Orit Levin <oritl@microsoft.com>, Paul
Knight <paul.knight@nortel.com>, Pierre Tane <ptane@nortel.com>,
"Natale,Bob" <RNATALE@mitre.org>, Amardeo Sarma
<Sarma@nw.neclab.eu>, John Storrie <storrie@nortel.com>,
"UNMEHOPA,Musa
(Musa)" <unmehopa@alcatel-lucent.com>
Agree I did not
want to get stuck on that but why is web 2.0 called out is unclear too other
than for "marketing" reasons...
Stephane
_____ Stephane H.
Maes, PhD, Chief Architect & CTO, Mobility, Voice, and Communications,
Oracle. Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax / Office UM:
+1-650-607-6296 e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com IM: shmaes (AIM/Y!/skype)
or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger) or stephane.maes@gmail.com
(Google)
From: Anthony Nadalin [mailto:drsecure@us.ibm.com] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 6:49
AM To: Abbie Barbir Cc: asoat-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org;
Ronco Enrico; Giordano,Michael (Michael); HANANE BECHA; Bilel Jamoussi; John
Phillips; Joao Girao; lucia.gradinariu@lggsolutions.com; Marco Carugi;
Brenner,Michael Ralf (Michael); Sabbouh,Marwan; Orit Levin; Paul Knight; Pierre
Tane; Natale,Bob; Amardeo Sarma; Stephane H Maes; John Storrie; UNMEHOPA,Musa
(Musa) Subject: RE:
[asoat-discuss] TC-charter-October-9-08-clean.doc
Why Web 2.0 ? REST and
Web Service can both play a role in SOA, so I would leave it at SOA and not add
Web 2.0
Anthony Nadalin | Work 512.838.0085 | Cell
512.289.4122
"Abbie Barbir"
---10/11/2008 06:17:13 PM---Stephane
From:
|
"Abbie Barbir"
<abbieb@nortel.com>
|
To:
|
"Stephane H Maes"
<STEPHANE.MAES@oracle.com>,
<lucia.gradinariu@lggsolutions.com>
|
Cc:
|
"John Storrie"
<storrie@nortel.com>, "Amardeo Sarma" <Sarma@nw.neclab.eu>,
Anthony Nadalin/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, "Giordano,Michael (Michael)"
<giordano@avaya.com>, "Brenner,Michael Ralf (Michael)"
<mrbrenner@alcatel-lucent.com>, "UNMEHOPA,Musa (Musa)"
<unmehopa@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Paul Knight"
<paul.knight@nortel.com>, "HANANE BECHA"
<hanane.becha@nortel.com>, "Marco Carugi"
<marco.carugi@nortel.com>, "John Phillips" <jap@nortel.com>,
"John Storrie" <storrie@nortel.com>, "Bilel Jamoussi"
<jamoussi@nortel.com>, "Orit Levin" <oritl@microsoft.com>,
"Natale,Bob" <RNATALE@mitre.org>, "Amardeo Sarma"
<Sarma@nw.neclab.eu>, "Joao Girao" <joao.girao@nw.neclab.eu>,
"Sabbouh,Marwan" <ms@mitre.org>, "Pierre Tane"
<ptane@nortel.com>, <asoat-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org>,
"Ronco Enrico"
<enrico.ronco@telecomitalia.it>
|
Date:
|
10/11/2008 06:17
PM
|
Subject:
|
RE: [asoat-discuss]
TC-charter-October-9-08-clean.doc
|
Stephane Many
thanks
So the current running name is (slight modification change To to
Can):
"Identifying Gaps in how SOA and Web 2.0 Technologies Can Fulfill
Telecommunications Requirements"
So let us try some acronyms
here:
1. IGST 2. GIST 3. GSAT Any other
suggestions?? Regards Abbie
From: Stephane H Maes [mailto:STEPHANE.MAES@oracle.com] Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 3:34
PM To:
lucia.gradinariu@lggsolutions.com; Barbir, Abbie (CAR:1A14) Cc: Storrie, John (MOP:MS024); Amardeo
Sarma; Anthony Nadalin; Giordano,Michael (Michael); Brenner,Michael Ralf
(Michael); UNMEHOPA,Musa (Musa); Knight, Paul (BL60:1A14); BECHA, HANANE
(CAR:1A12); Carugi, Marco (CTF:33508); Phillips, John (HAL02:V3BO4); Storrie,
John (MOP:MS024); Jamoussi, Bilel (BL60:1A00); Orit Levin; Natale,Bob; Amardeo
Sarma; Joao Girao; Sabbouh,Marwan; Tane, Pierre (CTF:EP10);
asoat-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org; Ronco Enrico Subject: RE: [asoat-discuss]
TC-charter-October-9-08-clean.doc
My problem in general is if the
title seems to imply a major restriction on the scope that we do not have. So a
title like "exploring the use of telecom service in applications" *limits the
scope to exposure of Telecom capabilities in applications* (in addition to being
questionable (service and application are at the same level it should rather
have been function , capabilities, enablers that we use instead of services...).
There are many other uses / aspects of SOA in Telco that we should
consider.
"Identifying Gaps in how SOA and Web 2.0 Technologies Fulfill
Requirements of Applications Entailing Telecom Services" ha the same
restriction. Call it "Identifying Gaps in how SOA and Web 2.0 Technologies to
Fulfill Telecommunications Requirements" would work better (because it does not
limit to the scope to the usage of SOA in exposure to applications, which really
is just 3rd party exposure or VAS exposure in Telco).
Same comment to the
shorter version. The " Applications Entailing Telecom Services" qualification is
not OK.
Thanks
Stephane
_____ Stephane H. Maes, PhD, Chief
Architect & CTO, Mobility, Voice, and Communications, Oracle. Ph:
+1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax / Office UM: +1-650-607-6296 e-mail:
stephane.maes@oracle.com IM: shmaes (AIM/Y!/skype) or
stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger) or stephane.maes@gmail.com
(Google)
From: lucia.gradinariu@lggsolutions.com
[mailto:lucia.gradinariu@lggsolutions.com] Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 10:46
AM To: Abbie Barbir Cc: John Storrie; Amardeo Sarma;
Anthony Nadalin; Giordano,Michael (Michael); Brenner,Michael Ralf (Michael);
UNMEHOPA,Musa (Musa); Paul Knight; HANANE BECHA; Marco Carugi; John Phillips;
John Storrie; Bilel Jamoussi; Orit Levin; Natale,Bob; Amardeo Sarma; Joao Girao;
Sabbouh,Marwan; Stephane H Maes; Pierre Tane;
asoat-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org; Ronco Enrico Subject: RE: [asoat-discuss]
TC-charter-October-9-08-clean.doc
The current title is not bad as one needs
to start by analyzing the use before identifying the how and the gaps in what's
available. Nevertheless, the title should reflect the objective not how the
group will reach it. And the objective as I understand it is: "Identifying
Gaps in how SOA and Web 2.0 Technologies Fulfill Requirements of Applications
Entailing Telecom Services"
or shorter forms
(suggestions): "Technology Gaps in Supporting Applications Entailing Telecom
Services (TG-SATS)" "Expanding New Technologies to Applications Entailing
Telecom Services (ETATS)"
hope one of these can
work
Lucia
Lucia Gradinariu, Principal LGG Solutions,
LLC mobile: +1.719.964.1446 skype: lgradina www.gradinariu.com
-------- Original
Message -------- Subject: RE: [asoat-discuss]
TC-charter-October-9-08-clean.doc From: "Abbie Barbir"
<abbieb@nortel.com> Date: Fri, October 10, 2008 2:04 am To:
"Stephane H Maes" <STEPHANE.MAES@oracle.com>, "Pierre
Tane" <ptane@nortel.com>, <asoat-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org>,
"Ronco Enrico" <enrico.ronco@telecomitalia.it> Cc: "John Storrie"
<storrie@nortel.com>, "Amardeo Sarma" <Sarma@nw.neclab.eu>,
"Anthony Nadalin" <drsecure@us.ibm.com>, "Giordano, Michael (Michael)"
<giordano@avaya.com>, "Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael)"
<mrbrenner@alcatel-lucent.com>, "UNMEHOPA, Musa (Musa)"
<unmehopa@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Paul
Knight" <paul.knight@nortel.com>, "HANANE BECHA"
<hanane.becha@nortel.com>, "Marco Carugi"
<marco.carugi@nortel.com>, "John Phillips" <jap@nortel.com>,
"John Storrie" <storrie@nortel.com>, "Bilel Jamoussi"
<jamoussi@nortel.com>, "Orit Levin"
<oritl@microsoft.com>, <lucia.gradinariu@lggsolutions.com>,
"Natale, Bob" <RNATALE@mitre.org>, "Amardeo Sarma"
<Sarma@nw.neclab.eu>, "Joao Girao" <joao.girao@nw.neclab.eu>,
"Sabbouh, Marwan" <ms@mitre.org>
Hi Please
suggest a name for the TC that we can agree on.
cheers abbie
From: Stephane H Maes [mailto:STEPHANE.MAES@oracle.com] Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:15
PM To: Tane, Pierre (CTF:EP10);
Barbir, Abbie (CAR:1A14); asoat-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org; Ronco
Enrico Cc: Storrie, John
(MOP:MS024); Amardeo Sarma; Anthony Nadalin; Giordano, Michael (Michael);
Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael); UNMEHOPA, Musa (Musa); Knight, Paul
(BL60:1A14); BECHA, HANANE (CAR:1A12); Carugi, Marco (CTF:33508); Phillips, John
(HAL02:V3BO4); Storrie, John (MOP:MS024); Jamoussi, Bilel (BL60:1A00); Orit
Levin; lucia.gradinariu@lggsolutions.com; Natale, Bob; Amardeo Sarma; Joao
Girao; Sabbouh, Marwan Subject:
RE: [asoat-discuss] TC-charter-October-9-08-clean.doc
Is
this title supposed to replace the SOA gaps?
I think that we lost
completely with the title the fact that the goal is to collect requirements and
issues with SOA (if any) for telecom and find ways to address. the title is not
OK. We should revert to previous title or find a new one...
Few more
comments / suggestions to the draft in the
doc.
Thanks
Stephane
_____ Stephane H. Maes, PhD, Chief
Architect & CTO, Mobility, Voice, and Communications, Oracle. Ph:
+1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax / Office UM: +1-650-607-6296 e-mail:
stephane.maes@oracle.com IM: shmaes (AIM/Y!/skype) or
stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger) or stephane.maes@gmail.com
(Google)
From: Pierre Tane [mailto:ptane@nortel.com] Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:23
AM To: Abbie Barbir;
asoat-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org; Ronco Enrico Cc: John Storrie; Amardeo Sarma;
Anthony Nadalin; Giordano, Michael (Michael); Brenner, Michael Ralf (Michael);
UNMEHOPA, Musa (Musa); Paul Knight; HANANE BECHA; Marco Carugi; John Phillips;
John Storrie; Bilel Jamoussi; Orit Levin; lucia.gradinariu@lggsolutions.com;
Stephane H Maes; Natale, Bob; Amardeo Sarma; Joao Girao; Sabbouh, Marwan Subject: RE: [asoat-discuss]
TC-charter-October-9-08-clean.doc
(Resent to you separately,
Stephane, given your mail server blocks zip files. A similar mail went to the
ASOAT mailing list.)
Hello all,
I've enclosed a modified version
to correct a few remainign typos and to propose a short sentence to address the
editor's note that resulted from the comment i had made on the previous version.
Let me know how i fared.
Kind regards,
Pierre
From: Barbir, Abbie (CAR:1A14) Sent: jeudi 9 octobre 2008
13:17 To:
asoat-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org; Ronco Enrico Cc: Storrie, John (MOP:MS024); Amardeo
Sarma; Anthony Nadalin; Giordano, Michael (Michael); Brenner, Michael Ralf
(Michael); UNMEHOPA, Musa (Musa); Tane, Pierre (CTF:EP10); Knight, Paul
(BL60:1A14); BECHA, HANANE (CAR:1A12); Carugi, Marco (CTF:33508); Phillips, John
(HAL02:V3BO4); Storrie, John (MOP:MS024); Jamoussi, Bilel (BL60:1A00); Orit
Levin; lucia.gradinariu@lggsolutions.com; Stephane H Maes; Natale, Bob; Amardeo
Sarma; Joao Girao; Sabbouh, Marwan Subject: [asoat-discuss]
TC-charter-October-9-08-clean.doc
All, Attached are two files.
The
clean file reflects my attempt in incorporating all the comments that has been
recived so far on the charter.
The second file is to be used as a
reference by the readers to see if I have addressed the comments
correctly.
As such, time is really important now. Please review the
clean version and let us see if we have agreement on the text. Once that is done
hopefully ASAP, I will setup a call next week to ensure that we are all on
agreement on the charter.
Before I can send the send the charter to OASIS
I will need the list of co-proposers of this TC. Please indicate to me who from
your organization will be on the co-proposers list.
Regards Abbie
|