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Subject: Re: [camp] YAML 1.1

On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 7:49 PM, Gilbert Pilz <gilbert.pilz@oracle.com> wrote:

Many thanks for all your help. I am naught but a lowly editor and I have a practical question: what does it mean to "include the yaml.org URIs in the text of the specification References"? I'm not sure what you mean by "dual URI references".

Right now our YAML reference looks like this:

[YAML 1.1] Oren Ben-Kiki, Clark Evans, Brian Ingerson, "YAML Ain't Markup Language (YAML) Version 1.1" http://yaml.org/spec/1.1/

What would it look like if we used a "dual URI reference"?

~ gp

OK: something like:

[YAML 1.1] Oren Ben-Kiki, Clark Evans, Brian Ingerson, "YAML Ain't Markup Language (YAML) Version 1.1" http://yaml.org/spec/1.1/.  Also archived at: http://xml.coverpages.org/yaml.txt.

Does that seem OK to you? 

Further, FYI:

If someone has a better suggestion, than the above that's great.

In a few months, we may have stronger prescriptions/recommendations about
how to create "best-practice" References, but for now, we have none --
other than cultural expectations in SSO/SDO arenas.

We hope to provide some citation libraries -- as per IETF and W3C -- so that
TC editors can simply SELECT references from a list, and then populate
the spec References section with a select-copy-paste gesture, or equivalent,
to stop the madness of making software engineers become bibliography
format geeks. (How stupid is that?)

My POV -- since the great "descriptive-markup qua be-verbose/explicit paradigm
shift -- exemplified in descriptive markup (1967-1981): explicit information almost
always trumps brevity.  So: we include editors' names.  Don't make someone
else do the research, for pity's sake.

So: your formulation "Oren Ben-Kiki, Clark Evans, Brian Ingerson" is very interesting,
and even encouraging to me.  At this moment, Staff (and TAB) are considering how
to enhance the recommended citations for OASIS specifications in spec
sections "Normative References" and "Non-Normative References", as well as in
the model "Citation format:" block.   At the moment, we do not cite spec editors,
but it's very common practice to do so.  The "YAML" spec reference above illustrates
one use case where omission of editors names would be odd (IMO: deficient)
bibliographically.  So also W3C and IETF, and many others. We're working on  it... :-)

At your service!

Cheers, - Robin

On Nov 6, 2013, at 5:13 PM, Robin Cover <robin@oasis-open.org> wrote:

On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 6:28 PM, Alex Heneveld <alex.heneveld@cloudsoftcorp.com> wrote:

Anish-  Yes, you are quite correct -- either I didn't mean contribute in the OASIS sense or I don't know exactly what that means or both.  In any case I will let the YAML authors know that the problem is resolved and that permanent archives are also available at  http://xml.coverpages.org/yaml.txt  .

Robin-  +1 thanks

Anish and Alex: I think you are on a reasonable path to justify normative reference to
YAML (whatever version you want: 1.0, 1.1, 1.2) in your CAMP specification.  I agree
with the initial concern that the target of a normative reference in an OASIS spec be
something identifiable (have identity), discoverable/accessible, and stable.

I agree with Jamie not only in the matter of suggesting that "YAML" can qualify, but
I agree with the position that OASIS has taken to date, viz., that we levy no
fixed requirements on what may [not] be cited as a "normative" reference in an
OASIS specification.  Some other SSOs/SDOs do so -- in great detail -- and I respect
their motivations and practices.  I even understand them :-)  In the OASIS context,
I think we are best served by allowing the members, as participants in the TCs, to
make a decision about what qualifies as candidate for "normative."  We all know
that identity, findability, stability, and verifiable authenticity are desirable.  Beyond
that: I don't think we can "know" what other features MUST be present to determine
whether a spec is worthy of a normative reference.  So: I very much like the current
OASIS practice and (lack of) policy on this matter.

One notes, in this connection, that many SSOs/SDOs allow for "undated"
references, where the Normative Reference specification is a moving target. 
I understand the rationale, and respect the practice, but it illustrates that
attempts at ultimate determinism are variable in their effectiveness:

"For dated references, only the edition cited applies. For
undated references, the latest edition of the referenced
document (including any amendments) applies." [ECMA ref example]
 - see also IEEE, ISO/IEC, OGC,...

Alex, thank you for the word "also" in your formulation "...permanent archives are
ALSO available at..."   I trust the authors/editors of the YAML spec to provide
continuity and longevity for access to their specification, so (IMO) the CAMP
TC should not do or say anything to imply that the canonical references now
at "yaml.org" are anything other than (also) "permanent" in some effective
sense.   I'm glad to provide stable URI references via the Cover Pages, which
you are welcome to cite in "Normative References", but I would urge that your
TC honor the primary/canonical sources by including those (yaml.org) URIs
in the text of the specification References.  OASIS TC Admin has no practice
of deprecating dual URI references which serve as locators (URLs).

Please let me know of there are other issues: I think you are heading down
a good path.  Thanks to Jamie and others who have identified the issues
and provided the basis for reasonable solutions.


- Robin


On 07/11/2013 00:22, Anish Karmarkar wrote:
On 11/6/13 4:10 PM, Alex Heneveld wrote:

Feedback from Ingy dot Net (one of the authors) is that he expected
they'd be happy for OASIS to host a copy, and he'd canvas the 2 other
co-authors.  But I haven't heard from them, nor had the chance to chase

Don't think we need permission anyway, for any of us to contribute a
copy of it to OASIS, as its license permits copying.

I think we do need permission if it is to be considered a contribution.
The copyright permits copying/hosting of the spec, but is mute on other IPR implications (eg patents, derivative works).
For a TC member to make a contribution requires that the TC member ascertain that they have the appropriate rights.
I suspect you didn't mean to say "contribution" the way it is used in OASIS that allows the TC to incorporate it in a spec or make derivative works.

But more importantly OASIS (via coverpages.org) has already hosted the spec, so I think it would be sufficient for us to use the coverpages.org URL in our reference.


(FWIW the three yaml co-authors each own one of yaml.{org,com,net} plus
copies on github and other archives so I don't think they are personally
concerned about it being lost.)


On 06/11/2013 23:54, Anish Karmarkar wrote:
Sounds like Robin has already solved our problem!


On 11/6/13 3:28 PM, Robin Cover wrote:
Seems to me that all of the options will work, in terms of providing
stable resources.  As further backup, the archives copies as cited
below may be useful.  Authors sometimes write me to say "Thanks
for archiving my paper on the Cover Pages: it's the only surviving
copy I could find on the Internet!"   ;-)



- Robin

On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 4:37 PM, Adrian Otto <adrian.otto@rackspace.com
<mailto:adrian.otto@rackspace.com>> wrote:


    Thanks so much for helping us address this concern. I really like
    part of option 3, which would be for YAML's authors to post the spec
    to github. That requires minimal participation from them, and solves
    the reference stability problem. It is also much cleaner than a
    rights transfer.


    On Nov 7, 2013, at 5:58 AM, Jamie Clark <jamie.clark@oasis-open.org
    <mailto:jamie.clark@oasis-open.org>> wrote:

    Dear colleagues:

    We understand that the TC is interested in invoking an
    externally-developed markup language (or similar methodology)
    called YAML, as part of an OASIS specification. However, the TC
    wishes to ensure that a stable copy can be properly provided and
    "secured" at a known URL ... so that your TC's work product does
    not point to a URL space that might become empty in the future.

    As a "normative reference" used within the CAMP specs, its IPR
    issues and similar considerations for the OASIS spec are well
    documented in our rules, and as we have been advised, are
    understood by your committee.  YAML may have no clear terms or
    licensing; but generally speaking, the TC is free to elect to
    reference it normatively, as its technical decision, just as it
    might other non-standards-track and perhaps-unlicensed works like
    RFC 4627.

    However, this spec currently resides at
    */http://yaml.org/spec/1.1//*, which unlike IETF RFCs, is a
    private website of unknown provenance and some age.

    OASIS as a standards host and publisher can only publish, display
    and re-use material that some party assures us, under our rules,
    that we have sufficient rights to re-post and use.

        *  Our IPR Policy assures us that we get those rights, for
    CONTRIBUTIONS from a member.  But as you know, that member must
    ascertain for itself that it has the right to make that
    contribution to the TC, and then make it.

        *  Our policies also permit members or nonmembers to make
    explicit contributions into a TC via our PUBLIC COMMENT facility;
    but here too, the commenter takes upon itself the responsibility
    for the permissions needed to do so.  For example, open source
    material can be taken in, this way, by a member or commenter who
    does so -- in reliance on a sufficient ASF Apache license,
    nonassertion covenant or similar general unconditional permission.

    Other than by those two methods, OASIS TCs cannot re-publish the
    work of other entities.  One reason is that its inclusion in the
    TC's document repository, generally, would be misleading --
    putting it there is the equivalent of claiming that the OASIS TC
    has the usual OASIS rights to re-publish, re-use and derive from

    We suggest that your TC or its members may have four options to
    up-grading the stability of the cite for */yaml.org

        1.  Seek YAML's authors' permission to contribute it into your
    TC, thus giving it a longer archival life, among other things.
        2.  Seek YAML's authors' permission to make it its own TC,
    with mostly the same outcome, except that this would make it more
    *generally* available, not just to CAMP.
        3.  Encourage them to re-post it to some other more
    archivally-predictable source, like GitHub or, if our
    communications staff can identify a proper case for it, the
    auxiliary sites we manage outside of the scope of our IPR policy,
    such as */xml.org <http://xml.org/> or /**xml.coverpages.org
    <http://xml.coverpages.org/>*.  I have copied Carol Geyer and
    Robin Cover here, to see whether such a solution might be
        4.  Review the rights available in the YAML work (which may
    include additional declarations or reservations not known to me)
    and conclude that an OASIS member holds, or can acquire, the
    rights itself  to do #1, #2 or #3.

    Please let us know if we can assist with any of these approaches;
    as informally discussed, we're happy to chat with the YAML folks
    if that would be useful.

    Cordially, Jamie

    James Bryce Clark, General Counsel
    OASIS: Advancing open standards for the information society

    www.identi.ca/JamieXML <http://www.identi.ca/JamieXML>
    www.twitter.com/JamieXML <http://www.twitter.com/JamieXML>

Robin Cover
OASIS, Director of Information Services
Editor, Cover Pages and XML Daily Newslink
Email: robin@oasis-open.org <mailto:robin@oasis-open.org>
Staff bio: http://www.oasis-open.org/people/staff/robin-cover
Cover Pages: http://xml.coverpages.org/
Newsletter: http://xml.coverpages.org/newsletterArchive.html
Tel: +1 972-296-1783

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Robin Cover
OASIS, Director of Information Services
Editor, Cover Pages and XML Daily Newslink
Email: robin@oasis-open.org
Staff bio: http://www.oasis-open.org/people/staff/robin-cover
Cover Pages: http://xml.coverpages.org/
Newsletter: http://xml.coverpages.org/newsletterArchive.html
Tel: +1 972-296-1783

Robin Cover
OASIS, Director of Information Services
Editor, Cover Pages and XML Daily Newslink
Email: robin@oasis-open.org
Staff bio: http://www.oasis-open.org/people/staff/robin-cover
Cover Pages: http://xml.coverpages.org/
Newsletter: http://xml.coverpages.org/newsletterArchive.html
Tel: +1 972-296-1783

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