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Subject: Summary 2 for "New to DocBook: XML or SGML, Clark or Open?"
(was "New to DocBook: XML or SGML, Clark or Open?")
Hallo DocBookers,
This is the second version of the summary of answers to my
original question (see the top of the message).
Thanks to all who replied. The answers of the persons are
included in the next list (sorted alphabetically -- if I
did not forget).
From the second version of the summary, I have included
also some information from other threads. The authors were
added to the list. I tried to follow the problems, not the
threads. I am planning to accumulate even more answers and
then I will try to reduce them to the core. If you know
sources with better answers, please, let me know.
Adam Di Carlo <adam@onshore.com>
David Johnson <david@usermode.org>
Dave Brooks, BCS Systems <dave@bcs.co.nz>
Jirka Kosek <jirka@kosek.cz>
Juan R. Migoya <promo804@hsoft.es>
Laurent Pointal <laurent.pointal@lure.u-psud.fr>
M. Wroth <mark@astrid.upland.ca.us>
Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>
Ramon Casellas <casellas@infres.enst.fr>
Robert Withrow <bwithrow@nortelnetworks.com>
chrisb@kippona.com
dkoschuetzki@gmx.de <Dirk.Koschuetzki@bonn.shuttle.de>
Sequences from my original message are prefixed by >
on the left. The answers (presented rather anonymously)
may be cut of the context. Feel free to complain ;-) My
occasional remarks are placed as [inlines] or separate
paragraphs in parenthesis (you will understand, I am sure :)
I consider Norman Walsh notices to be exceptional in the
sense that some people (including me) -- when undecided --
want to accept his advices. For that purpose, I have
marked his notices using inline [NW].
----------------------------------------------------------------
> Briefly first, more details below in the text:
>
> - Should I be oriented towards SGML or XML when starting
> with DocBook as a total greenhorn?
>
> [from other thread] Are there any benefits to XML over
> SGML when it comes to DocBook? Is it worth my time to
> learn Java and fix those XSLT engines, or is it better
> spent learning scheme and DSSSL?
* I tried XML. For several reasons I remained loyal to
SGML. SGML is more oriented to printed documentation
than XML, and after all, you work the same way.
* XML is future of DocBook, SGML is past.
[later] When I said XML is future, its more about tools
and usage in the world (look at the quick developement
of XML use in the Internet land, relatively to the slow
growth of SGML due to its "lourdeur" (cumbersomeness)).
* SGML has the advantage of being more flexible in both
markup (i.e. the ability to minimize or omit tags --
useful if you're working in a text editor, less so if
you're using a good editor. XML has better tool support
(especially at the freeware level).
Printed documentation tends to move one more toward
DSSSL processors for output -- at least as far as I can
see. If you use that tool set, SGML or XML is not an
issue. If you use an XSL based tool set, that, of
course would favor an XML solution.
* I have had a great deal understanding the DSSSL [which
means orientation to SGML] from Norm Walsh. My advice
would be that if you have time to spend learning, the
effort will be compensated. I say this when actually I
haven't had time enough to make my stylesheet
customizations as good as I would like, but I have
"real" results and I'm sure I will get at a stable
point.
* In your situation I'd use SGML [...]. But the choice
of XML/SGML at the front end is not likely to be a big
deal for you (now), and XML seems to be direction most
of the tool development is headed.
* I've seen some pretty outrageous typography from the
current set of XML DocBook tools (like major widows and
orphans), but I'm guessing much of that can be explained
by their relative immaturity.
[NW...] that depends on your formatter. DocBook is about
content, not presentation.
* SGML+DocBook(DSSSL)+jade+[jadetex,pdfjadetex]
+Makefile+emacs(psgml) is a great, multiplatform
toolchain which you can start using this afternoon.
* [in reply to the upper the author writes] Surely,
XML+DocBook(DSSSL)+jade+[jadetex,pdfjadetex]
+Makefile+emacs(psgml)
is also great multiplatform toolchain which also runs
"out-of-the-box" [...]. My point is that Docbook/XML can be
used for markup without having to go down the XLST path,
while still leaving XLST as a future option.
* Norman Walsh says in
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 09:51:00 -0400
From: Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>
Subject: Re: DOCBOOK: Okay, why?
In-reply-to: <01040519241304.00175@weathertop>
To: docbook@lists.oasis-open.org
Message-id: <87d7aqxhkr.fsf@nwalsh.com>
[...] XML is the future. And reports of specific problems,
especially with the DocBook XSL stylesheets are always
appreciated.
* XML may be the future, but I'm living in the present :-)
(I think the topic needs further clarification. I have
found the article "XML/SGML: On the Web and Behind the
Web" at "http://www.sgmltech.com/papers/aatphv1099.htm"
which seems to answer some of the questions. Reading that,
I would personally incline towards SGML. The question is
whether the conclusions make sense for DocBook.
What should also be clarified is whether the DocBook's
SGML branch is planned to be obsoleted one day or not.)
----------------------------------------------------------------
> - Do I need a unicode capable editor for XML?
* You do not need unicode editor. From your domain, I
suppouse that you want write docs in the Czech language
[good guess ;-)]. In this case, you can start DocBook
XML document with line
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="windows-1250"?>
or
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-2"?>
and then use appropriate single-byte encoding.
* [edited...] there is a problem when HTML is generated
from XML. The character encoding is not set inside the
generated HTML [...] Jade [...] SP_ENCODING=xml.
[from reply to the upper notice] This is problem for
both SGML and XML sources. You can add following code
into your DSSSL customization layer and proper <meta>
tag will be included in generated HTML.
(define %html-header-tags%
'(("META" ("HTTP-EQUIV" "Content-Type") ("CONTENT" "text/html;
charset=windows-1250"))))
If you use XSL stylesheets (this implies usage of XML
DocBook), this meta tag is inserted automatically by
XSLT processor.
----------------------------------------------------------------
> - Notice: I am using Windows NT (I have no choice).
* Read the tutorial "SGML for Windows NT" on how to set
up a free SGML editing and publishing system for
Windows NT by Markus Hoenicka:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/hoenicka_markus/ntsgml.html
(I did not follow exactly everything from inside, but I
found the tutorial really helpful. Is there a similar
document for starting with XML?)
----------------------------------------------------------------
> Question on Clark vs. Open
> ==========================
>
> This question is not the basic one for me. I only would like to
> know, whether I should prefer Clark's SP and Jade or
> OpenSP and OpenJade (and why). Are these projects
> developed as competitors? Did Clark ever expressed
> his opinion on OpenSP and OpenJade?
* Jade works correctly.
* I switched to OpenJade some time ago, but I went back
to Jade because there was some problems with the
stylesheets I hadn't found in Jade. So now I work with
Jade. Some times in this list I have read "use Jade" in
order to avoid a specific problem, but I'm unable to
tell you if in this moment OpenJade is the right choice
or not.
* I use jade (tried openJade but get into problems - jade
has problems too at this time, which has been corrected
since, but i haven't re-tried openJade) and DSSSL. I
have tried to use the modern XSLT tools, but failed to
make one work correctly in a short time (maybe with
investigating more...).
* OpenJADE is the open source continuation of JADE,
started with James' blessing when he became too
involved in other projects to continue to update JADE.
There is additional functionality in OpenJade, which
may or may not be important to you (*I* haven't had any
particular need for it, processing DocBook and some
homegrown scripts, but YMMMV). On the other hand, I
have found the error messages from OpenJADE to be less
than informative... which makes a difference, especially
when you're trying to learn.
[from reply] Running under Linux, OpenJade 1.3 / OpenSP
1.34 gives the correct error messages (ie.the same as
Jade), which suggests that the problem is with the
Windows build of OpenJade.
(This remains open for me, but I do not consider it a big
problem.)
----------------------------------------------------------------
> Question on JadeTeX
> ===================
>
> I am thinking about using (La)TeX for generating printable
> version of the documentation and also the PostScript
> and PDF versions. Is the TeX back-end the usual way
> for doing that?
* It is usual way, but not the only. Another way to
produce printed version is to use XSL stylesheets and
some FO processor (e.g. PassiveTeX). This tool-chain is
improving very rapidly.
* Please check http://www.infres.enst.fr/~casellas/docbook.html
and see if it fits your needs. [The alternative
conversion tool to LaTeX, probably better for
mathematics -- not tested by myself.]
* JadeTeX have some serious problems on longer documents.
For larger documents I personally generate RTF file by
Jade and then use Word and Distiller to get PDF.
* The TeX backend attempts to use a TeX macro package to
render the output of JADE, resulting in good quality
typesetting for the printed documentation. I like that
approach in theory, but haven't had much luck with it
in practice -- almost everything I print is done with
the RTF backend. (The TeX macros are built in LaTeX2e,
BTW -- but unless you really want to monkey around with
them, you edit in the SGML/XML and treat TeX as a black
box. Your previous LaTeX experience will probably help
in getting everything going, though.)
* [NW] For fine typography, I'd go with PassiveTeX
(XSL) or JadeTeX (DSSSL) and let TeX do the hard work.
(Notice: there is LaTeX3 project oriented towards SGML/DSSSL
http://www.latex-project.org/guides/ltx3info/ltx3info.html)
(Can anybody else confirm such problems with JadeTeX? I
want to use it -- what should I expect when compared with
usual LaTeX styles?)
================================================================
Notice on an editor: I do use (also for other purposes)
the JED editor (http://space.mit.edu/~davis/jed/")
which emulates emacs. It does not use lisp as internal
language but it also has support for LaTeX, HTML, and
SGML for DocBook (some bugs as the DocBook support is
very young, but promissing ;-).
----------------------------------------------------------------
Notice on a project C++ source documentation: As I have
noticed also some remark about literate programming...
"I'll make the side plug that you might consider
using something like Nuweb / LaTex in a literate
programming environment if you're documenting code.
Unfortunately, I know of no stable SGML/XML literate
programming tools, although they should in principle
be straightforward."
I should mention that I do use Doxygen
(http://www.doxygen.org/) which produces HTML, LaTeX,
RTF and other formats. (I think that it can be
considered a tool for literate-like programming with
some differences. It uses more code-centered approach
where the text is added to the programming language
comments.) It uses Graphviz
(http://www.research.att.com/sw/tools/graphviz/) for
generating inheritance diagrams, etc. The results are
appreciated well by the users.
What may be interesting for SGML/XML supporters is that
there is some interest in using XML (SGML?) in the
Doxygen comunity. I think that the Doxygen developers
would appreciate more help from SGML/XML experts (you
should know that you will not be paid by money for that
;-)
That's all for now,
Petr
--
Petr Prikryl, SKIL, spol. s r.o., prikrylp@skil.cz
---
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