[Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date Next] -- [Date Index] | [Thread Index] | [Elist Home]
Subject: RE: PIP IDs
Marty I agree that a sensible CPA tool should digest the CPA into a table that allows look up in an efficient manner. The problem is that I am not sure that it would (or could) actually do it. For example, if you wanted to use a very simple routing rule, e.g. "all the messages that company xyz sends to IBM go to one URL", then the CPA processor would have to **infer** this rule from analyzing all the CPAs that define the individual collaborations between xyz co and IBM. This type of inference processing is both hard to do and un-reliable since the inference processor cannot assume that the next CPA it receives will not follow the rule. Secondly, if you wanted to change the URL for all these messages then you would have to change all the CPAs rather than just change the single simple rule. To solve this problem, you need to be able to express **directly** a rule in its simplest form, (e.g. all messages from xyz co for IBM go to one URL). However the current CPA structure doesn't support this type of rule definition (Is that correct?). Finally, the current perception of a CPA is, IMO, that it is the **only** way to specify the information required for ebXML Messaging to work when clearly there could be more appropriate ways of specifying the information for some circumstances. Hence my reasons for wanting to be able to use ebXML Messaging without CPAs. Finally, I do think that CPAs are a good idea especially where you have point-to-point communication, they're just not the only good idea ;) Regards David -----Original Message----- From: Martin W Sachs [mailto:mwsachs@us.ibm.com] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 12:48 PM To: Burdett, David Cc: 'Arvola Chan'; David Fischer; ebXML Msg; Pete Wenzel Subject: RE: PIP IDs David, Please forgive my repetition, but... Your two points: look up the CPA from the CPA ID and route the message to the endpoint identified, or look up the Party, Service and Action in a table to identify where to send the message to. are really one and the same since any sensible CPA tool will digest the CPA into a table that allows looking up the routing information in the most efficient manner. The only difference between them is where the table comes from. Regards. Marty **************************************************************************** ********* Martin W. Sachs IBM T. J. Watson Research Center P. O. B. 704 Yorktown Hts, NY 10598 914-784-7287; IBM tie line 863-7287 Notes address: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM Internet address: mwsachs @ us.ibm.com **************************************************************************** ********* "Burdett, David" <david.burdett@commerceone.com> on 07/19/2001 03:17:41 PM To: "'Arvola Chan'" <arvola@tibco.com>, Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM@IBMUS, David Fischer <david@drummondgroup.com> cc: ebXML Msg <ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org>, Pete Wenzel <Pete.Wenzel@RosettaNet.org> Subject: RE: PIP IDs Thanks Arvola !! You have saved me from writing an email. I absolutely concur with what you say ... you can have one "service" supporting multiple different business transactions. If we do this it also means that we can have one conversation involving multiple different business transactions, e.g. a 3A4 (Create Purchase Order) followed by a 3A8 (Change Purchase Order) where the change purchase order was for the order created by the create purchase order. Another use case is where you can have the same service used in multiple different collaborations for example consider the following two collaborations: Example 1, Invoice Payment: 1. BT1 - Present Invoice 2. BT2 - Make Payment Example 2, Pay Refund: 1. BT1 - Request Refund 2. BT2 - Make Payment Both of these involve making a payment which, in Business Transaction terms, would be carried out the same way. Where I think it gets really critical to separate the two is when you want to route messages. If Party, Service and Action are always the same, irrespective of the business process in which they are being used then you can use these three fields for routing purposes in a consistent way. On reflection this I think is one of the issues I have with always requiring a CPA as defined in the CPA/CPP spec as you can actually quite reasonably do routing in two different ways: look up the CPA from the CPA ID and route the message to the endpoint identified, or look up the Party, Service and Action in a table to identify where to send the message to. The former allows you to vary the endpoint very flexibly and alter where you send a message to depending on the business process you are in, the latter allows you to have simpler rules but with less flexibility. I think both use cases are valid ... and required .. David -----Original Message----- From: Arvola Chan [mailto:arvola@tibco.com] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 9:04 AM To: Martin W Sachs; David Fischer Cc: Burdett, David; ebXML Msg; Pete Wenzel Subject: Re: PIP IDs Marty, Up to now, RosettaNet PIPs are either request-response (two-actions) or notification (one-action) style business processes. Earlier versions of PIP 3A4 are an exception in the sense that PIP 3A4 covers Create Purchase Order (request-response), Change Purchase Order (request-response) and Cancel Purchase Order (request-response) interactions. Recently, PIP 3A4 has been split into 3A4 (Create Purchase Order), 3A8 (Change Purchase Order), and 3A9 (Cancel Purchase Order) in order to achieve some degree of uniformity across PIPs (I believe). Therefore, I think it is reasonable to equate existing RosettaNet PIPs with BPSS Business Transactions. In the RosettaNet message header, there are separate elements to identify the PIP ID, the PIP action and the Service. Multiple PIPs may be implemented by the same service, e.g., there may be a Buyer service implementing PIPs 3A4, 3A8, 3A9 from the buyer perspective, and a Seller service implementing the same PIPs from the seller perspective. I don't think we should equate PIP ID with Service and action with "the particular business transaction within the PIP". Otherwise, we will not be able to capture the role information, e.g., the ability to distinguish a Buyer Service from a Seller Service, and a request action from a response action. From the RosettaNet point of view, it will be desirable if we can have distinct Service, PIP (equivalently BPSS Business Transaction), and action elements in the message header. Alternatively, we can use the Service element to capture role information (e.g., Buyer vs Seller), and use the Action element to capture the PIP ID. Whether we are dealing with a request action or a response action will have to be inferred from the Service element. Regards, -Arvola Arvola Chan (arvola@tibco.com) TIBCO Software (on loan to RosettaNet) +1-650-846-5046 (US-Pacific) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin W Sachs" <mwsachs@us.ibm.com> To: "David Fischer" <david@drummondgroup.com> Cc: "Burdett, David" <david.burdett@commerceone.com>; "ebXML Msg" < ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 8:07 AM Subject: Re: PIP IDs In my opinion it makes more sense for Service to point to the PIP ID and action to point to the particular business transaction within the PIP. In other words one execution of a PIP is a conversation. I believe that some of the PIPs include multiple business transactions. Regards, Marty **************************************************************************** ********* Martin W. Sachs IBM T. J. Watson Research Center P. O. B. 704 Yorktown Hts, NY 10598 914-784-7287; IBM tie line 863-7287 Notes address: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM Internet address: mwsachs @ us.ibm.com **************************************************************************** ********* David Fischer <david@drummondgroup.com> on 07/19/2001 10:45:54 AM To: "Burdett, David" <david.burdett@commerceone.com> cc: ebXML Msg <ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org> Subject: PIP IDs David, in the F2F you mentioned the need for a new element to contain industry specific business process identifiers such as a RosettaNet PIP identifier. Could this be done with Service/Action where the Service would be something like RNet and the Action something like PIP3A1 (Request Quote)? <eb:Service>urn:services:RNet</eb:Service> <eb:Action>PIP3A1</eb:Action> Regards, David Fischer Drummond Group. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this elist send a message with the single word "unsubscribe" in the body to: ebxml-msg-request@lists.oasis-open.org ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this elist send a message with the single word "unsubscribe" in the body to: ebxml-msg-request@lists.oasis-open.org
[Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date Next] -- [Date Index] | [Thread Index] | [Elist Home]
Powered by eList eXpress LLC