RE: FW: [egov] chair e-gov TC and next steps

I have to say I'm with David on this one.

I can't see what the downside is of trying - just one more time.

Maybe the more open/less formal format will work - maybe it won't.

But at least we will know we have given it our best shot under the circumstances.

If no-one is going to step up to the plate to lead a TC then this option leaves the door open to ramp up if there is a need and/or desire to.

Cheers

Colin

From: "David RR Webber (XML)" <david@drrw.info>
To: peter@pensive.eu
CC: egov@lists.oasis-open.org, 'Colin Wallis' <colin_wallis@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: FW: [egov] chair e-gov TC and next steps
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 05:45:22 -0700

Peter,

What I'm suggesting is the change the modus operandi so we CAN succeed - given the metrics of the community that we are.

Clearly the TC style operation is not attracting direct participation from our members. Without the incentive of a specification to write, edit and test - what do you do? Those energies that are directed on other projects that you mention - how can that result in positive outcomes on the eGov TC side?

I do see the big need to provide a collaborative environment where people can come with issues, ideas and topics for discussion across a diverse eGov community. Share and learn.

I also see the need for OASIS to have a coordination point where collective knowledge resides on eGov related work. I know John had that as the original vision - being able to share work that governments had developed - formalize it - and then publish that to the TC documents area.

If instead we have a focus of content and resources around a http://egov.xml.org site - then it becomes a joint initiative between OASIS and the TC. The OASIS staff can post news items from OASIS TCs directly - and then from time-to-time we can suggest material that a government entity has developed using OASIS standards as a information point. A third category could be articles and publications.

So the web site would have the three sections to it visually. And then we have the discussion list to support the overall need for Q&A.

This is essentially a lighter weight TC model - concensus collaboration from OASIS members with a special interest in eGov. But without the need to formally endorse work - instead just report and inform. That still leaves us with the option at some future point - if there was enough interest around a specific topic - to create a SC of the TC - to develop deliverables to address that.

If I wanted to offer an example right now - I can point to the CIQ work on address and person - that TC is being supported by the NZ and AU gov staff indirectly - and deliverables adopted by many other govs'. Right now they are discussing extensions to support geo-coordinates such as provided by GoogleEarth. This would be a perfect case to put on egov.xml.org - as a topic area - that could then point people to that specific TC for more detail.

DW

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: FW: [egov] chair e-gov TC and next steps
From: "Peter F Brown" <peter@pensive.eu>
Date: Thu, September 28, 2006 4:27 pm
To: "'David RR Webber (XML)'" <david@drrw.info>, "'Colin Wallis'"
<colin_wallis@hotmail.com>
Cc: <egov@lists.oasis-open.org>

There is still the same basic problem: even if we do set up a forum such as
has been done for OpenDocument, where is the momentum and input to drive it
forward? Our energies seem to be elsewhere on other projects that have
concrete deliverables.

If we can come up with a realistic workplan and get buy-in, I'm all for it,
but I'm not in favour of artificial respiration if we conclude that the TC
is in persistent vegetative state. Sorry for being so blunt but Harm Jan
wasn't able to rekindle the work even with institutional backing and no-one
else seems to have the time, energy, commitment to step up to the plate...or
are you out there somewhere?!

regards,

Peter

-------------
Peter F Brown
Chair, CEN eGovernment Focus Group
Founder, Pensive.eu
Co-Editor, OASIS SOA Reference Model
Lecturer at XML Summer School
---
Personal:
+43 676 610 0250
http://public.xdi.org/=Peter.Brown
www.XMLbyStealth.net
www.xmlsummerschool.com

-----Original Message-----
From: David RR Webber (XML) [mailto:david@drrw.info]
Sent: 28 September 2006 16:51
To: Colin Wallis
Cc: egov@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: FW: [egov] chair e-gov TC and next steps

Colin,

Good to know about the Liberty work on eGov.

In addition to maintaining the mailing list for communication - I believe
strongly that OASIS needs to build the focus site - as they have with
OpenDocument.

<snip>The new OASIS opendocument site is an excellent example:
http://opendocument.xml.org/ <http://opendocument.xml.org/> </snip>

where relevant work is then show cased in a readily accessible manor.
Having to dig into email archives - or trawl the documents section of the TC
is not user-friendly enough by comparison.

Instead using RSS feeds makes this a snap to maintain in today's world - as
I'm currently doing with http://ebXMLforum.net - where new items can be
added in minutes by the OASIS staffers when TC's announce work and results
that are applicable - and RSS readers can pick up on those directly.

Interestingly I presented at the annual PESC for Education Sector
professionals (another great eGov area!) - on how easy this is to do for
school adminstrators and parents running functions and clubs.

http://www.pesc.org/events/techstandards/third/presentations/Using%20XML%20S
cripting%20for%20Business%20and%20Life.ppt

How much is XML making your life easier and effecting how your collaborate
with your peers?!?

Cheers, DW

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: FW: [egov] chair e-gov TC and next steps
From: "Colin Wallis" <colin_wallis@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, September 27, 2006 11:50 am
To: egov@lists.oasis-open.org

Apologies
Mail filtering issues meant that the list in general did not get my
response.

I have re-sent my response from my Hotmail account.

cheers
Colin

________________________________

From: WALLIS, Colin
Sent: Monday, 25 September 2006 11:44 a.m.
To: 'David RR Webber (XML)'; 'peter@justbrown.net'
Cc: 'egov@lists.oasis-open.org'; 'jamie.clark@oasis-open.org';
'h.j.m.burg@minfin.nl'
Subject: RE: [egov] chair e-gov TC and next steps

Harm Jan, David, Peter et al

I support the discussion and direction that this thread is
taking.

It's interesting that at the very time that OASIS is running
into difficulties on this TC, Liberty have just established their eGov SIG.
As its Chair for the past few months, I continue tread carefully, conscious
of the challenges here! It is slightly easier going because Liberty's focus
is limited to federated identity but transcends standards development
through to implementation. The narrower focus makes it easier to keep an eye
on other work streams and "chip in" with the eGov view, as well as take on
our own work items that support those efforts but not covered by another
Liberty group. And, particularly with implementation considerations, we get
a more proactive interest from vendor and private sector members.

By comparison, OASIS's vast scope makes it hard to keep all
the activity on one's radar. David's point that OASIS is first and foremost
in the business of creating standards is pertinent here.

Peter's point that we are all immersed in so many projects
is so true. And unless there is a funded project that can be leveraged for
egov TC use it's hard to get some momentum going. The notion of an e-gov
Ontology first proposed by Ann Wrightson at the 2005 XML Summer School in
Oxford was a classic example. Excellent thought, but because there was no
subsequent project, it didn't fly. Up to a point, UN/CEFACT TGB 19 (another
egov group set up in the last 12 months) has taken up this cause, leveraging
the Canadian government's GSRM (Govt Strategic Reference Model) (contact Ed
Buchinski).

I totally favour OASIS keeping an e-gov "presence" - even if
that is no more than a mailing list (I diverge from your thoughts here
Harm-Jan - I think that a mere mailing list still offers valuable
information sharing, even if it is not everything one would wish for from a
TC).

Cheers

Colin
________________________________

From: David RR Webber (XML) [mailto:david@drrw.info]
Sent: Saturday, 23 September 2006 5:31 a.m.
To: peter@justbrown.net
Cc: egov@lists.oasis-open.org; jamie.clark@oasis-open.org;
h.j.m.burg@minfin.nl
Subject: RE: [egov] chair e-gov TC and next steps

Peter,

Also - the issue is that TC's like eGov are atypical - in
they are not XML-heads writing schemas and such!

We've faced this in the BCM and IHC TCs as well.

Also - alot of eGov facing work is being done on specifics
inside other TCs' - such as UBL, BCM, IHC, BPSS to name just a few - where
concrete focus is applied to a vertical area and eGov use cases are derived
and supporting specifications and schemas developed.

Perhaps the role of the eGov TC is more akin to that of the
Joint Coordinating Committee - and that may be part of the solution too - to
have a eGov CC along with a general subscription interest list.

Meanwhile the challenges facing eGov are huge - and the need
to coordinate expands - for example - with the ebXML Hermes technology - the
US Gov is using and deploying it - and the Chinese government is funding the
development - but what is happening in terms of concerted leveraging of this
exciting possibility to help drive adoption on a broad basis across industry
and eGov? Trying to find even the right people to talk to, let alone
develop a common vision, is a major challenge!

To give a sense of this - the following article from GCN
News on US Gov funding for OMB and eGov is insightful.
http://www.gcn.com/print/25_21/41449-1.html

Clearly the need for what the eGov TC represents has never
been greater - actually finding the right mechanism to coordinate this is
another matter.

Perhaps OASIS should consider an eGov showcase area? Where
we could post materials and coordination materials relevant to OASIS work
and eGov?

The new OASIS opendocument site is an excellent example:
http://opendocument.xml.org/

This would remove the need to have a formal TC to manage
that - as the OASIS staff would follow their normal guidelines for
showcasing OASIS work.

DW

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [egov] chair e-gov TC and next steps
From: peter@justbrown.net
Date: Fri, September 22, 2006 12:46 pm
To: h.j.m.burg@minfin.nl
Cc: egov@lists.oasis-open.org,
jamie.clark@oasis-open.org

Dear Harm Jan:

Firstly, thank you for the frank comments: nobody
likes
hanging on to something that isn't working but at
the same
time it takes some guts to take the step you have.

Secondly, thanks for trying to get it going again. I
think
you have probably done all that could realistically
be
expected in the circumstances and it really is up to

public sector agencies that are OASIS members to
take the
lead here: if they don't, I don't think it would be
healthy for only the "industry" members to bail them
out
of their responsibilities.

I think one of the major problems is simply that
eGovernment has become a victim of its own success:
we are
all so involved in some many areas of work, the eGov
TC on
its own no longer provides the foucs for any
specific
piece of work.

I wonder whether the next steps are:
- to officially wind up the TC;
- to propose to OASIS the activation of an
eGovernment
Forum (Wiki based maybe?) that could provide a
lightweigth
information exchange and discussion forum without
the
formality of a TC and the TC process.

Jamie: any comments regarding formal procedure and
possibilities?

Best regards,

Peter

-------------
Peter F Brown
Chair, CEN eGovernment Focus Group
Founder, Pensive.eu
Co-Editor, OASIS SOA Reference Model
Lecturer at XML Summer School
---
Personal:
+43 676 610 0250
http://public.xdi.org/=Peter.Brown
www.XMLbyStealth.net
www.xmlsummerschool.com

==================================
Dear friends, TC members,

A year ago I accepted the election as chair of this
committee. After the start I did a few proposals to
change
the modus operandi of the TC.
In general: organising at least three face to face
meetings a year, at least one TC conference call a
month
and a more clear working agenda.
Next to that I expected the non government members
to
contribute more to this committee.
At the time we got into a short discussion on the
role of
this TC.
The general outcomes:
Almost no agreement on having face to face meetings
: Too
costly No one was willing or able to pay for
teleconference lines or communication costs Industry

members perceived this TC as a group of government
officials who make clear what they want and industry
is
listening.

I was of course disappointed about this for a couple
of
reasons:
There is a lot of knowledge to share between
industry and
governments but as we say in my country :love has to
come
from both sides.
Just a few actors and the rest lurkers simply does
not
work. Working within OASIS means per say that
industry
plays a heavy role. If government representatives
want to
talk among each other there are more and perhaps
better
organisations to do this in.
Next to that if a TC takes itself serious it has to
produce work. If a TC wants to be heard it means
hard work
and also making costs. A TC is more than a mailing
group.

I promised the TC to organise a couple of informal
regional sessions. One during the OASIS forum in
London (3
members), One in Washington (3 members), One in
Canberra,
Australia (2 members). All participants except one
where
government officials.
In this meetings members did want a new start but
had not
enough time and resources to pull this TC

My conclusion at this moment. Although there is
interest,
there is no support for a active working E-gov TC
anymore.
And I am not the person able to make it work.
Currently I am in charge of a lot of projects in my
own
government and I have my activities in the Tax-xml
TC as
well. Although industry support in that TC is
minimal as
well, there is a firm basis and that TC is working.

So, I must admit (a little disappointed) that I
could not
make it happen, I have decided to leave this TC. I
hope
and expect that a later date E government
interoperability
issues will make a E-gov TC worthwhile. At that time
I
will be happy to make a contribution is any form.

Kind regards,

Harm Jan van Burg
Netherlands Ministry of Finance
Directorate-General of the Tax and Customs
Administration

office + 31 70 342 8522
mobile +31 6 23943759

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