Re: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting process - one disabilities concern

["Simon Bain" <sibain@tendotzero.com>]

It is nice to see agreement :-)

David we have talked about the postal ballots
just a point to keep in mind. There is a strong
possibility that before the UK next election
(May the 5th I am told by the BBC) That all
postal ballot elections will be outlawed and
also postal ballots themselves may well be stopped
because of a few problems that we had over here.

Cheers
Simon
-- 
Simon Bain
TENdotZERO
----------
Tel:    0845 056 3377
        44 1234 359090
Mobile: 44 (0)7793 769 846

<quote who="David Webber \(XML\)">
> Paul,
>
> And this is why I think the work on a common trusted process model
> is so crucial.  Once we have that we have a reference point on which
> to attached the localized methods and variations.
>
> Thanks, DW
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Spencer" <paul.spencer@boynings.co.uk>
> To: <charbel.aoun@accenture.com>
> Cc: <election-services@lists.oasis-open.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:20 PM
> Subject: RE: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting process - one
> disabilities concern
>
>
>> I think we are in violent agreement here :-)
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: charbel.aoun@accenture.com [mailto:charbel.aoun@accenture.com]
>> > Sent: 21 February 2005 16:59
>> > To: paul.spencer@boynings.co.uk; sibain@tendotzero.com
>> > Cc: election-services@lists.oasis-open.org
>> > Subject: RE: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting process -
>> one
>> > disabilities concern
>> >
>> >
>> > Absolutely we can not change at will and this is not what I meant to
>> > say. I agree with you that we need to follow whatever rules of change
>> we
>> > will agree or adopt. I just wanted to say irrelevant of how we
>> implement
>> > change we are still far from stability in EML...Beside EML UK version
>> is
>> > progressing but the International is still a concept far from being
>> > table or even fixed....I think what the Uk been doing will have to be
>> > replicated and when we speak EML we have to specify which EML we are
>> > talking about. Do you agree? What is said about the UK version can not
>> > be said about the embryo international version.
>> > Cheers
>> >
>> > Charbel Aoun
>> > Accenture eDemocracy Services
>> > Director of Operations and Technology - International
>> > 105 Ladbroke Grove
>> > London, W11 1PG
>> > United Kingdom
>> > M +44 794 925 2143
>> > T  +44 207 616 8414
>> > Octel 43/ 40363
>> > email: charbel.aoun@accenture.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Paul Spencer [mailto:paul.spencer@boynings.co.uk]
>> > Sent: 21 February 2005 16:12
>> > To: Aoun, Charbel; sibain@tendotzero.com
>> > Cc: election-services@lists.oasis-open.org
>> > Subject: RE: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting process -
>> one
>> > disabilities concern
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Charbel,
>> >
>> > I agree that the standard needs to change to reflect points found
>> during
>> > implementation. Several changes were made as a result of the 2002 and
>> > 2003 experiences, and more as a result of recent implementations for
>> > registration systems. However, I think we are beyond the stage of
>> being
>> > able to change the standard at will. It could change as a result of
>> > David's initiative if it looks like becoming a standard. It could
>> change
>> > as a result of future planned implementations. But not as a result of
>> a
>> > "wish" unless it has some real chance of implementation.
>> >
>> > It is not that the standard is frozen, just gradually upping the
>> barrier
>> > on what causes a change as more implementations get put in place. In
>> the
>> > meantime, the extensibility of the core language can be exploited.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: charbel.aoun@accenture.com [mailto:charbel.aoun@accenture.com]
>> > > Sent: 21 February 2005 12:59
>> > > To: sibain@tendotzero.com; paul.spencer@boynings.co.uk
>> > > Cc: election-services@lists.oasis-open.org
>> > > Subject: RE: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting process -
>> > > one disabilities concern
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > In a natural evolution of EML we should expect and I believe it is
>> > > normal to have an evolving EML. Apart from the few suppliers that
>> > > implemented EML in 2003 there is no previous experience or real
>> > > implementation we can refer to. With that in mind and with the fact
>> > > that EML is still changing (though less an less) we can not talk
>> "yet"
>> >
>> > > about stability. Stability will be achieved once we have across the
>> > > board an EML compliance and intergation among the vendors. After
>> which
>> >
>> > > we can talk stability. Till than expect that while the legislation
>> may
>> >
>> > > be changing to accommodate modernization and while the users are
>> > > discovering what they need and can do from this new electronic
>> format,
>> >
>> > > EML in the meantime will keep on changing. For those who played with
>> > > EML in 2003 and I am one of them, experience showed us what is
>> agreed
>> > > on in this committee does not necessarily aply on the ground or
>> > > provide a practical solution. Cheers
>> > >
>> > > Charbel Aoun
>> > > Accenture eDemocracy Services
>> > > Director of Operations and Technology - International
>> > > 105 Ladbroke Grove
>> > > London, W11 1PG
>> > > United Kingdom
>> > > M +44 794 925 2143
>> > > T  +44 207 616 8414
>> > > Octel 43/ 40363
>> > > email: charbel.aoun@accenture.com
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: Simon Bain [mailto:sibain@tendotzero.com]
>> > > Sent: 21 February 2005 09:14
>> > > To: Paul Spencer
>> > > Cc: eml
>> > > Subject: RE: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting process -
>> > > one disabilities concern
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Hi.
>> > >
>> > > I am one of those which does implement EML. I am also of the view
>> and
>> > > was very much of this oppinion during the development of the code in
>> > > the 2003 local elections that standards should not change
>> continually,
>> >
>> > > as this gives people reasons to not use it and/or continual software
>> > > updates which customers then get annoyed with.
>> > >
>> > > However all standards should be extensible. This does 2 things
>> > > 1) Allows users to input their own tags. (Can be dangerous and not
>> > > allow for open cross border use)
>> > > 2) Allows the standards body to define sub schemas which then can be
>> > > taken into the main schema if required by the using authority.
>> > >
>> > > What a standard should not become is static, which I know you are
>> not
>> > > suggesting. A standard should also not be closed to new thoughts and
>> > > suggestions, even after it has been approved and announced. Again
>> > > something I know that you are not suggesting.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > So in my oppinion there should be a stable almost non changing
>> > > standard with enough extensibility placed in it to allow other
>> smaller
>> >
>> > > more specific schemas to be defined by the standards body and then
>> > > adopted by users. These would plug n to the main schema, making it
>> > > extensible and controllable.
>> > >
>> > > This would then allow for the additions of items after due
>> > > consideration and thought to be added in a sub schema. For ideas put
>> > > over not only by David but also by others as they start to use the
>> > > schema. The standard still remains under the control of the
>> standards
>> > > body but allows for a much easier adoption and sharing ability, and
>> > > also allow it to grow and prosper. After all in 98 at the SGML
>> > > conference in Paris this is what most users and vendors were
>> screaming
>> >
>> > > for in the new XML syntax. Not to have a fixed DTD one which was not
>> > > extensible and one that could not move with the rest of the World.
>> > >
>> > > Cheers from a very cold Bedford
>> > > Simon
>> > > --
>> > > Simon Bain
>> > > TENdotZERO
>> > > ----------
>> > > Tel:    0845 056 3377
>> > >         44 1234 359090
>> > > Mobile: 44 (0)7793 769 846
>> > >
>> > > <quote who="Paul Spencer">
>> > > > Simon,
>> > > >
>> > > > The basic point is that people are currently implementing EML, and
>> > > > won't do so if the specification is changing continually. So it is
>> > > > more that we should consider changes as part of an improvement
>> cycle
>> >
>> > > > over some specified time period. If David is looking at defining
>> and
>> >
>> > > > agreeing an electoral process, that will take some time (perhaps
>> > > > 6-12 months within OASIS,
>> > > but
>> > > > considerably longer to get any nation to agree to adopt it) and
>> EML
>> > > could
>> > > > then be adjusted to fit.
>> > > >
>> > > > At least, that is my understanding and opinion. Perhaps John
>> Borras
>> > > > has a different view.
>> > > >
>> > > > Regards
>> > > >
>> > > > Paul
>> > > >
>> > > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > > >> From: Simon Bain [mailto:sibain@tendotzero.com]
>> > > >> Sent: 20 February 2005 07:57
>> > > >> To: Paul Spencer
>> > > >> Cc: "David Webber " <david@drrw.info>,
>> > > >> election-services@lists.oasis-open.org"@tendotzero.com
>> > > >> Subject: RE: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting
>> process
>> > > >> - one disabilities concern
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Paul hi.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> What do you mean by "stability".
>> > > >> Do you mean that you do not want any updates to the EML spec or
>> do
>> > > >> you mean that you mean that any future updates should be pllaced
>> on
>> >
>> > > >> hold for a given period of time?
>> > > >>
>> > > >> All the best
>> > > >> Simon
>> > > >> --
>> > > >> Simon Bain
>> > > >> TENdotZERO
>> > > >> ----------
>> > > >> Tel:    0845 056 3377
>> > > >>         44 1234 359090
>> > > >> Mobile: 44 (0)7793 769 846
>> > > >>
>> > > >> <quote who="Paul Spencer">
>> > > >> > v4 has been released. We are looking for some stability at the
>> > > >> moment, but
>> > > >> > that does not mean that we don't want to continue to move
>> > > >> > forwards.
>> > > >> John
>> > > >> > Borras chairs the TC, and this would be a subject for the
>> meeting
>> >
>> > > >> > he
>> > > >> is
>> > > >> > suggesting.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > Regards
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > Paul
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >> -----Original Message-----
>> > > >> >> From: David Webber (XML) [mailto:david@drrw.info]
>> > > >> >> Sent: 19 February 2005 16:31
>> > > >> >> To: Paul Spencer; election-services@lists.oasis-open.org
>> > > >> >> Subject: Re: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting
>> > > >> process - one
>> > > >> >> disabilities concern
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> Paul,
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> Just reviewed the EML docs and schemas and sent some public
>> > > >> >> comments to the OASIS comments list.  Some of this can be
>> > > >> >> addressed now - but other matters are going to need more work.
>> > > >> >> Are we on a timetable to release EML 4.0 here - or do we have
>> > > >> >> another release cycle here to use up?  Otherwise a 4.5 release
>> > > >> >> to catch these other matters clearly is another option.
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> Thanks, DW
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> > David,
>> > > >> >> >
>> > > >> >> > Have you read the EML documents? This is a start on a viable
>> > > >> process.
>> > > >> >> At
>> > > >> >> the
>> > > >> >> > time, we felt we needed a reference process to help us
>> define
>> > > >> >> the schemas.
>> > > >> >> > We also felt that this process would vary a lot
>> > > >> >> internationally. However,
>> > > >> >> > there are certain key points (mainly to do with trust) that
>> > > >> >> > can be standardised on an international basis.
>> > > >> >> >
>> > > >> >> > I would love to see the OASIS E&VSTC get involved in this,
>> but
>> > > >> >> I wonder if
>> > > >> >> > OASIS is the right place for this. On the other hand, it
>> could
>> > > >> >> be the only
>> > > >> >> > place that would take a truly international (rather than
>> > > >> >> US-centric) view.
>> > > >> >> > Also, from a personal view, having spent a considerable time
>> > > >> helping
>> > > >> >> get
>> > > >> >> EML
>> > > >> >> > to the stage it is, I would like any new initiative to use
>> it.
>> > > >> >> >
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from the
>> > > >> >> roster of the OASIS TC), go to
>> > > >> >> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/election-services/m
>> > > >> >> em
>> > > >> > bers/leave_workgroup.php.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >
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>> > > >> > the OASIS TC), go to
>> > > >> >
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>> > >
>> > >
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