Re: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting process - one disabilities concern

["David Webber \(XML\)" <david@drrw.info>]

Simon,

That would be a great shame.  Hopefully not.

I would hope that local intervention would work instead.
That is obviously what law enforcement and other
services are there for.

Clearly any trusted process is only as good as the
supporting services and vigilance applied to it.
The two work in tandem, one securing, the other
detecting and remediating.

I would expect that lobby groups such as blind
and disabled groups will press for retaining postal
ballots.  The need is to enhance the process whereby
people who can get postal ballots to exclude those at
risk or are using it to exploit it - rather than having
genuine reasons for not attending a polling station.

Human nature - sigh! ; -)

DW

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Simon Bain" <sibain@tendotzero.com>
To: "David Webber (XML)" <david@drrw.info>
Cc: "Paul Spencer" <paul.spencer@boynings.co.uk>;
<charbel.aoun@accenture.com>; <election-services@lists.oasis-open.org>
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting process - one
disabilities concern


> It is nice to see agreement :-)
>
> David we have talked about the postal ballots
> just a point to keep in mind. There is a strong
> possibility that before the UK next election
> (May the 5th I am told by the BBC) That all
> postal ballot elections will be outlawed and
> also postal ballots themselves may well be stopped
> because of a few problems that we had over here.
>
> Cheers
> Simon
> -- 
> Simon Bain
> TENdotZERO
> ----------
> Tel:    0845 056 3377
>         44 1234 359090
> Mobile: 44 (0)7793 769 846
>
> <quote who="David Webber \(XML\)">
> > Paul,
> >
> > And this is why I think the work on a common trusted process model
> > is so crucial.  Once we have that we have a reference point on which
> > to attached the localized methods and variations.
> >
> > Thanks, DW
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul Spencer" <paul.spencer@boynings.co.uk>
> > To: <charbel.aoun@accenture.com>
> > Cc: <election-services@lists.oasis-open.org>
> > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:20 PM
> > Subject: RE: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting process - one
> > disabilities concern
> >
> >
> >> I think we are in violent agreement here :-)
> >>
> >> Paul
> >>
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: charbel.aoun@accenture.com [mailto:charbel.aoun@accenture.com]
> >> > Sent: 21 February 2005 16:59
> >> > To: paul.spencer@boynings.co.uk; sibain@tendotzero.com
> >> > Cc: election-services@lists.oasis-open.org
> >> > Subject: RE: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting process -
> >> one
> >> > disabilities concern
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Absolutely we can not change at will and this is not what I meant to
> >> > say. I agree with you that we need to follow whatever rules of change
> >> we
> >> > will agree or adopt. I just wanted to say irrelevant of how we
> >> implement
> >> > change we are still far from stability in EML...Beside EML UK version
> >> is
> >> > progressing but the International is still a concept far from being
> >> > table or even fixed....I think what the Uk been doing will have to be
> >> > replicated and when we speak EML we have to specify which EML we are
> >> > talking about. Do you agree? What is said about the UK version can
not
> >> > be said about the embryo international version.
> >> > Cheers
> >> >
> >> > Charbel Aoun
> >> > Accenture eDemocracy Services
> >> > Director of Operations and Technology - International
> >> > 105 Ladbroke Grove
> >> > London, W11 1PG
> >> > United Kingdom
> >> > M +44 794 925 2143
> >> > T  +44 207 616 8414
> >> > Octel 43/ 40363
> >> > email: charbel.aoun@accenture.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: Paul Spencer [mailto:paul.spencer@boynings.co.uk]
> >> > Sent: 21 February 2005 16:12
> >> > To: Aoun, Charbel; sibain@tendotzero.com
> >> > Cc: election-services@lists.oasis-open.org
> >> > Subject: RE: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting process -
> >> one
> >> > disabilities concern
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hi Charbel,
> >> >
> >> > I agree that the standard needs to change to reflect points found
> >> during
> >> > implementation. Several changes were made as a result of the 2002 and
> >> > 2003 experiences, and more as a result of recent implementations for
> >> > registration systems. However, I think we are beyond the stage of
> >> being
> >> > able to change the standard at will. It could change as a result of
> >> > David's initiative if it looks like becoming a standard. It could
> >> change
> >> > as a result of future planned implementations. But not as a result of
> >> a
> >> > "wish" unless it has some real chance of implementation.
> >> >
> >> > It is not that the standard is frozen, just gradually upping the
> >> barrier
> >> > on what causes a change as more implementations get put in place. In
> >> the
> >> > meantime, the extensibility of the core language can be exploited.
> >> >
> >> > Regards
> >> >
> >> > Paul
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > From: charbel.aoun@accenture.com
[mailto:charbel.aoun@accenture.com]
> >> > > Sent: 21 February 2005 12:59
> >> > > To: sibain@tendotzero.com; paul.spencer@boynings.co.uk
> >> > > Cc: election-services@lists.oasis-open.org
> >> > > Subject: RE: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting
process -
> >> > > one disabilities concern
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > In a natural evolution of EML we should expect and I believe it is
> >> > > normal to have an evolving EML. Apart from the few suppliers that
> >> > > implemented EML in 2003 there is no previous experience or real
> >> > > implementation we can refer to. With that in mind and with the fact
> >> > > that EML is still changing (though less an less) we can not talk
> >> "yet"
> >> >
> >> > > about stability. Stability will be achieved once we have across the
> >> > > board an EML compliance and intergation among the vendors. After
> >> which
> >> >
> >> > > we can talk stability. Till than expect that while the legislation
> >> may
> >> >
> >> > > be changing to accommodate modernization and while the users are
> >> > > discovering what they need and can do from this new electronic
> >> format,
> >> >
> >> > > EML in the meantime will keep on changing. For those who played
with
> >> > > EML in 2003 and I am one of them, experience showed us what is
> >> agreed
> >> > > on in this committee does not necessarily aply on the ground or
> >> > > provide a practical solution. Cheers
> >> > >
> >> > > Charbel Aoun
> >> > > Accenture eDemocracy Services
> >> > > Director of Operations and Technology - International
> >> > > 105 Ladbroke Grove
> >> > > London, W11 1PG
> >> > > United Kingdom
> >> > > M +44 794 925 2143
> >> > > T  +44 207 616 8414
> >> > > Octel 43/ 40363
> >> > > email: charbel.aoun@accenture.com
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > From: Simon Bain [mailto:sibain@tendotzero.com]
> >> > > Sent: 21 February 2005 09:14
> >> > > To: Paul Spencer
> >> > > Cc: eml
> >> > > Subject: RE: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting
process -
> >> > > one disabilities concern
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Hi.
> >> > >
> >> > > I am one of those which does implement EML. I am also of the view
> >> and
> >> > > was very much of this oppinion during the development of the code
in
> >> > > the 2003 local elections that standards should not change
> >> continually,
> >> >
> >> > > as this gives people reasons to not use it and/or continual
software
> >> > > updates which customers then get annoyed with.
> >> > >
> >> > > However all standards should be extensible. This does 2 things
> >> > > 1) Allows users to input their own tags. (Can be dangerous and not
> >> > > allow for open cross border use)
> >> > > 2) Allows the standards body to define sub schemas which then can
be
> >> > > taken into the main schema if required by the using authority.
> >> > >
> >> > > What a standard should not become is static, which I know you are
> >> not
> >> > > suggesting. A standard should also not be closed to new thoughts
and
> >> > > suggestions, even after it has been approved and announced. Again
> >> > > something I know that you are not suggesting.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > So in my oppinion there should be a stable almost non changing
> >> > > standard with enough extensibility placed in it to allow other
> >> smaller
> >> >
> >> > > more specific schemas to be defined by the standards body and then
> >> > > adopted by users. These would plug n to the main schema, making it
> >> > > extensible and controllable.
> >> > >
> >> > > This would then allow for the additions of items after due
> >> > > consideration and thought to be added in a sub schema. For ideas
put
> >> > > over not only by David but also by others as they start to use the
> >> > > schema. The standard still remains under the control of the
> >> standards
> >> > > body but allows for a much easier adoption and sharing ability, and
> >> > > also allow it to grow and prosper. After all in 98 at the SGML
> >> > > conference in Paris this is what most users and vendors were
> >> screaming
> >> >
> >> > > for in the new XML syntax. Not to have a fixed DTD one which was
not
> >> > > extensible and one that could not move with the rest of the World.
> >> > >
> >> > > Cheers from a very cold Bedford
> >> > > Simon
> >> > > --
> >> > > Simon Bain
> >> > > TENdotZERO
> >> > > ----------
> >> > > Tel:    0845 056 3377
> >> > >         44 1234 359090
> >> > > Mobile: 44 (0)7793 769 846
> >> > >
> >> > > <quote who="Paul Spencer">
> >> > > > Simon,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The basic point is that people are currently implementing EML,
and
> >> > > > won't do so if the specification is changing continually. So it
is
> >> > > > more that we should consider changes as part of an improvement
> >> cycle
> >> >
> >> > > > over some specified time period. If David is looking at defining
> >> and
> >> >
> >> > > > agreeing an electoral process, that will take some time (perhaps
> >> > > > 6-12 months within OASIS,
> >> > > but
> >> > > > considerably longer to get any nation to agree to adopt it) and
> >> EML
> >> > > could
> >> > > > then be adjusted to fit.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > At least, that is my understanding and opinion. Perhaps John
> >> Borras
> >> > > > has a different view.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Regards
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Paul
> >> > > >
> >> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> >> > > >> From: Simon Bain [mailto:sibain@tendotzero.com]
> >> > > >> Sent: 20 February 2005 07:57
> >> > > >> To: Paul Spencer
> >> > > >> Cc: "David Webber " <david@drrw.info>,
> >> > > >> election-services@lists.oasis-open.org"@tendotzero.com
> >> > > >> Subject: RE: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting
> >> process
> >> > > >> - one disabilities concern
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Paul hi.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> What do you mean by "stability".
> >> > > >> Do you mean that you do not want any updates to the EML spec or
> >> do
> >> > > >> you mean that you mean that any future updates should be pllaced
> >> on
> >> >
> >> > > >> hold for a given period of time?
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> All the best
> >> > > >> Simon
> >> > > >> --
> >> > > >> Simon Bain
> >> > > >> TENdotZERO
> >> > > >> ----------
> >> > > >> Tel:    0845 056 3377
> >> > > >>         44 1234 359090
> >> > > >> Mobile: 44 (0)7793 769 846
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> <quote who="Paul Spencer">
> >> > > >> > v4 has been released. We are looking for some stability at the
> >> > > >> moment, but
> >> > > >> > that does not mean that we don't want to continue to move
> >> > > >> > forwards.
> >> > > >> John
> >> > > >> > Borras chairs the TC, and this would be a subject for the
> >> meeting
> >> >
> >> > > >> > he
> >> > > >> is
> >> > > >> > suggesting.
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >> > Regards
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >> > Paul
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> > > >> >> From: David Webber (XML) [mailto:david@drrw.info]
> >> > > >> >> Sent: 19 February 2005 16:31
> >> > > >> >> To: Paul Spencer; election-services@lists.oasis-open.org
> >> > > >> >> Subject: Re: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting
> >> > > >> process - one
> >> > > >> >> disabilities concern
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >> >> Paul,
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >> >> Just reviewed the EML docs and schemas and sent some public
> >> > > >> >> comments to the OASIS comments list.  Some of this can be
> >> > > >> >> addressed now - but other matters are going to need more
work.
> >> > > >> >> Are we on a timetable to release EML 4.0 here - or do we have
> >> > > >> >> another release cycle here to use up?  Otherwise a 4.5
release
> >> > > >> >> to catch these other matters clearly is another option.
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >> >> Thanks, DW
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >> >> > David,
> >> > > >> >> >
> >> > > >> >> > Have you read the EML documents? This is a start on a
viable
> >> > > >> process.
> >> > > >> >> At
> >> > > >> >> the
> >> > > >> >> > time, we felt we needed a reference process to help us
> >> define
> >> > > >> >> the schemas.
> >> > > >> >> > We also felt that this process would vary a lot
> >> > > >> >> internationally. However,
> >> > > >> >> > there are certain key points (mainly to do with trust) that
> >> > > >> >> > can be standardised on an international basis.
> >> > > >> >> >
> >> > > >> >> > I would love to see the OASIS E&VSTC get involved in this,
> >> but
> >> > > >> >> I wonder if
> >> > > >> >> > OASIS is the right place for this. On the other hand, it
> >> could
> >> > > >> >> be the only
> >> > > >> >> > place that would take a truly international (rather than
> >> > > >> >> US-centric) view.
> >> > > >> >> > Also, from a personal view, having spent a considerable
time
> >> > > >> helping
> >> > > >> >> get
> >> > > >> >> EML
> >> > > >> >> > to the stage it is, I would like any new initiative to use
> >> it.
> >> > > >> >> >
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from
the
> >> > > >> >> roster of the OASIS TC), go to
> >> > > >> >>
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