RE: [emix] follow-on question to 'green fountain' scenario

["Phil Davis" <pddcoo@gmail.com>]

Well, my head hurts now...

We've had two kinds of customers in the past: one that wanted green energy
but specifically also that wanted to retire the associated certificates
(altruistic).  The other was one that wanted fungible certificates so that
any excess over their target could be resold (mercenary). 

With respect to local solar,  suspect your points would be addressed by the
state PUC's and implemented by the LDC.  It is not practical to expect local
generators (excluding those that are in the professional generating
business) to deal with the complexities of energy markets.  The result is
that the "greenness value" is expressed in local incentives (rebates, tax
credits) which essentially replace the concept of certificates for value or
at least duplicates that function.  Absent that, you'd almost have to have a
meter that could imbue net metered electrons with the appropriate value
added certificates and communicate that to some central banker.  We actually
make meters capable of this and of distinguishing between dirty and clean
local generation, but the cost is beyond that which most small installations
would find feasible.

Helpful?

Phil Davis



-----Original Message-----
From: Anne Hendry [mailto:ahendry@pacbell.net] 
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 1:49 PM
To: emix@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: [emix] follow-on question to 'green fountain' scenario

After today's discussion I wanted to try to get a bit more clarity on the
'green content source' discussion, so thought I'd throw out a hopefully
simple example.

In my area we have quite a bit of local solar.  Up until recently net
metering was the predominant method for handling any excess, although that
is moving towards a direct monetary compensation model and eventually one
where all generation is put back to the grid first.  Now, the generator
(local home, business) gets certs for that green energy put back.  Once that
energy goes back to the pool, though, I don't believe there is any tracking
of how that energy was generated (other 
than the remaining certs).   Are we envisioning a future where that will 
change and all sources will be tracked through additional mechanisms?

[It may be the case that even if power does come from a green source, there
is no certificate or tracking because it has not been 'certified', perhaps
because there has been no mainstream market established for it, or the
certification process is too onerous.]

Even if there is tracking, the certs for the above example go off into the
financial carbon trading world where their validity and value are manged by
a financial mechanism that is a world unto its own, and the energy takes a
different route, back to the grid and then on to someone else's home or
business.

So the financial value of the 'greenness' of this energy has already 
been used up (by giving certs to the producer).   I would therefore 
assume the cost of that energy to the consumer would be lower [than if it
included the certs] because it has no certs included/embedded -- that 
value has already been realized by someone else.   If the certs had not 
already been utilized, and came with the energy, then the price of this
energy would be higher because it would include valuable carbon certs.  
So, then, going back to the 'green fountain' example, is that consumer 
looking for utilized or unutilized 'green value', or does it care?   Is 
it driven primarily by economic reasons or altruistic reasons?

Another way to pose this, relative to what we're modeling, might be: if the
certs have already been utilized, is there still value (and data) to be
tracked due to the green source -- other than what went with the value of
the certs (this would be, basically, altruistic value)?  This assumes the
price is adjusted at the time the certs are removed.

I felt at the end of the discussion that we may be talking about two
entirely different types of scenarios/markets.

Any comments/corrections welcome.

-Anne


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