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Subject: March 17, 2010: EI TC Working Group Meeting Chat Transcript.

Attached -- comments or discussions can be posted to the EI TC mailing 

Thank you,

Rish Ghatikar
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
1 Cyclotron Road, MS: 90-3111, Berkeley, CA 94720
GGhatikar@lbl.gov | +1 510.486.6768 | +1 510.486.4089 [fax]

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List of attendees: David C. Wilson (DCW), Dr. Dirk E. Mahling, Ed Koch, Gale Horst, Kyle Meadors , Rish Ghatikar, Timothy Bennett, anonymous, Ed Cazalet, Jermey Roberts.

Chat transcript from room: energyinterop
2010-03-17 GMT-05:00
[11:00] anonymous morphed into Dr. Dirk E. Mahling
[11:02] Rish Ghatikar: On call - Jeremy roberts
[11:03] Rish Ghatikar: On call - Ed Cazalet
[11:04] Rish Ghatikar: Dirk - OpenADR status
[11:04] Rish Ghatikar: EK: Lots of work on transattional pricing - RTP is good place to start.
[11:05] Rish Ghatikar: EK: Make clear on two types of pricing - typical in ISO - ex-ante - offered to customers at a given price to buy - that what the price you get.
[11:05] Rish Ghatikar: EK: Ex post price is the price after the meter is read
[11:05] Rish Ghatikar: EK: Some markets you have both prices some only one.
[11:06] Rish Ghatikar: JR: Frustrated by receiving ex-post pricing - from supplier
[11:06] Rish Ghatikar: Rish: replace all EK to EC above.
[11:07] Rish Ghatikar: EK: customer obviiously wnat ex-ante prices.
[11:07] Rish Ghatikar: make clear in the document that they are different.
[11:07] David C. Wilson (DCW): Dave Wilson joings
[11:08] Rish Ghatikar: JR: Limit in EP prices - from possibility of pricing range from x-y, but we do know that it's going to be this much.
[11:08] Rish Ghatikar: EC: Warning from supplier?
[11:08] Rish Ghatikar: JR: ex-ante price with range - ex-post will be within range.
[11:09] Rish Ghatikar: EC: Customer have the opportunities to make hedge.
[11:09] Rish Ghatikar: EC: If working with the ISOs - it may be changing - historically they're ex-post pricing in RTP 5 minute market.
[11:11] Rish Ghatikar: Rish: 1. Ex-post prices need to be thought further - e.g., is it part of EI? What part of this is included in the eMIX? As I understand, for supplier to set prices, either the customer needs to know how much will be used or some form of forecasting methodologies are used. This requires more transactional messages needed as part of the OpenADR/EI messages. Are we assuming that this information is being made available from other sources?
[11:14] Rish Ghatikar: Rish: 2. I see ex-ante to be more relevant. 3. I think the price intervals requirements could be secondary and the data model should support any amount of granularity. In an almost complete work at LBNL, we've demonstrated both hourly and 15 minute pricing both based on the same data mode. Granularity could be followed with some attributes that define that granularity.
[11:14] Rish Ghatikar: DM: Tough to remember to all that have gone by.
[11:16] Rish Ghatikar: DM: OpenADR has pricing - the idea here is rapidly changing
[11:16] Rish Ghatikar: EK: We didn't extend - OpenADR.
[11:17] Rish Ghatikar: EK: In current OpenADR, pricing is simplistic
[11:17] Rish Ghatikar: DM: Back to Rish's earlier comment - prices moving further and further down.
[11:18] Rish Ghatikar: DM: In DR, PLM industry since 10 years from IT - the vast majority of customers have hard time putting together one curtailment
[11:18] Rish Ghatikar: DM: 6 secs is very forward thinking.
[11:19] Rish Ghatikar: DM: if automated, price signal is instantenous - at some point - if price jiggles - like stock prices and trips at some time and that's when the automated action within building has to happen.
[11:21] Rish Ghatikar: DM: it's illusionary to know that
[11:21] Rish Ghatikar: EC: not advocating 6 second pricing.
[11:23] Rish Ghatikar: GH: Last week, topic of scope - text sent out to rearrange the scope
[11:24] Rish Ghatikar: GH: Add specificity - getting downo to the bottom - have general scope definition and specific in-scope and out-scope statements.
[11:24] Rish Ghatikar: GH: helps a lot for those who are not in the call
[11:24] Rish Ghatikar: GH: Like the discussions we're having on pricing - make statements clear to make discussions stay on track.
[11:25] Rish Ghatikar: GH: reformatted to come to scope - bring finality to the group.
[11:25] Rish Ghatikar: GH: big section on line 598 - trying to fit with the scope - didn't look at it.
[11:26] Rish Ghatikar: GH: Q in mind - do we assume contractual statements for settlement.
[11:26] Rish Ghatikar: GH: settlement may be beyond the scope.
[11:26] Rish Ghatikar: FM: Making a very valid point.
[11:27] Rish Ghatikar: DM: FM = DM above: send a signal and initate a DR, measuring that is a different story
[11:28] Rish Ghatikar: Rish: May be just send energy prices - others are managing that e.g. OpenADE
[11:28] Rish Ghatikar: GH: I agree - I think it's beyond the scope of this group.
[11:29] Rish Ghatikar: DM: If you step-back, meter is the key interface and the utility has been very conscious. metering was the first issue
[11:29] Rish Ghatikar: DM: if you think back 6-8 years, metering systems, etc. were the hot topic. we should not revisit that.
[11:30] Rish Ghatikar: GH: Few points to be clear to describe the boundaries.
[11:32] Rish Ghatikar: EK: we're in some agreement that M&V is not in scope
[11:32] Rish Ghatikar: EK: there might be some information from the customer
[11:33] Rish Ghatikar: EK: specifically, before sending the information to the facility - who is receiving that information - e.g., shed level - knowing the state of the facility if they have to send that infomration.
[11:33] Rish Ghatikar: DM: Who would be the consumer of that infomration?
[11:33] Rish Ghatikar: EK: the utility
[11:34] Rish Ghatikar: DM: Utilities are one form of DR - in east we've ISOs - in international (sweden?) there are are national providers - similar to FERC
[11:34] Rish Ghatikar: EK: it could be aggregators as well.
[11:34] Rish Ghatikar: DM: Sending the information from individual utility or the ISO.
[11:35] Rish Ghatikar: EK: The level of resolution depends on the entity.
[11:36] Rish Ghatikar: EK: A notiion of entitity weather they're participating or not - a simple infomration.
[11:36] Rish Ghatikar: DM: Trying to flush an use case - let's say an aggregators - most likely dealing with small fish
[11:37] Rish Ghatikar: DM: The promise of OpenADR is not for 5MW facilities, is the ability of smaller facilities to participate
[11:38] Rish Ghatikar: EK: that's the use case I am touching.
[11:39] Rish Ghatikar: DM: We have an operator, that says the price is changing - in next few hours calling for 30 MW for $1.50, then the message comes back for $1.50 we're not.
[11:39] Rish Ghatikar: DM: Is that human doing it - or is it part of automated process?
[11:40] Rish Ghatikar: EK: it's being done today - based upon looking at the operators on the load serving sides for resources that are available.
[11:40] Rish Ghatikar: EK: variety of interactions that can take place.
[11:40] Rish Ghatikar: EK: information at the level we would like to participate at. bidding into market place.
[11:41] Rish Ghatikar: DM: stepping back - the reason for the standard is to automate DR and remove behavioral quagmire - didn't you just introduce them?
[11:42] Rish Ghatikar: EK: we don't want to reintroudce if we don't want to include them.
[11:42] Rish Ghatikar: DM: if sending the price and curtailment level - is that information already stored in DRAS. can't run them based on the information.
[11:43] Rish Ghatikar: EK: Yes, that's correct - the information is flowing upstream.
[11:43] Rish Ghatikar: EK: there is a lot of on-gong discussion of what that upstream information should be.
[11:50] Rish Ghatikar: Rish: information on grid to customer and cusotmer to grid discussion earlier.
[11:51] Rish Ghatikar: DM: rationing gas to raise prices.
[11:51] Rish Ghatikar: JM: rationing prices to not allow them to buy at all - rationing for energy - poor might suffer.
[11:52] Rish Ghatikar: EK: have associated time associated? people may migrate to pricing - also a need for grid reliability.
[11:52] Rish Ghatikar: GH: once a while sense a tendency - turn the pricing to DR.
[11:58] Rish Ghatikar: Rish: Describe the status of OpenADR. Participating Load Pilot, Dynamic Pricing, Intermittent/DER, conformance, etc.
[11:58] Rish Ghatikar: Rish: If any comments or questions, please send it to the group.

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