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Subject: [humanmarkup] Meeting transcript -- chat

A thanks to everyone for attending the meeting, and helping us wrap up 2001.

Here's a foreward of the Yahoo Conference chat, in which our international
members (Henrik and Manos) participated in the teleconference, proxy myself.

Loggable meetings is a big benefit of chat, which is why I propose future
sessions primarily on chat, and teleconference by proxy instead, if others
feel comfortable with this (the smiley's however, didn't appear in this text
based transcript...too bad :().

There were a couple of questions Manos had about the relation of markup in
relation to your work Rob, which I didn't get to bring up -- feel free to
address them via the Discussion List.

Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga

Yahoo! Messenger: You are now logged into voice conference - rexbroo-9311.
rexbroo: hi rkt
rkthunga: hey rex...could you send me the agenda to my yahoo account (i
have it available)
rkthunga: manos is here...xcircuit
Yahoo! Messenger: xcircuit has joined the conference.
xcircuit: hi folks
rkthunga: hey manos!
xcircuit: how is everyone?
rexbroo: Hi guys, It is going to be tough for me since I don't have
equipment yet. but I will do my best.
rkthunga: doing pretty good...how are you manos?
xcircuit: fine fine...
xcircuit: who else is on?
rkthunga: good we could finally figure out a way for you to meet
rexbroo: just me and ranjeeth
rexbroo: The stateside phone number is 1-888-316-9411
rexbroo: passcode 51383
rexbroo: that was for ranjeeth.
rkthunga: i got that...thanks
rkthunga: ok manos...i will be passing what's happening on teleconference to
xcircuit: ok, thnx
rkthunga: agree with HPCML subcommittee?
rkthunga: sudhakar is still interested in creating this
xcircuit: i agree but i would like to see more emphasis in good organization
of efforts
xcircuit: 3 persons needed for committee IMHO as stated before
xcircuit: clear roles would be great too
rkthunga: i mentioned this, and rob, sudhakar, and rex are interested
xcircuit: excellent
rkthunga: sudhakar will be following up by January 15th
rkthunga: regarding interoperability comments...if you have feedback, please
post them as well
xcircuit: are we going to have a mission statement/roles/blabla on the list
or is this a final vote?
xcircuit: meaning, as a place for conversation and further reformation or
rkthunga: yeah, that has been established and posted i believe on the board
rkthunga: henrik is on as well
xcircuit: ok, the more the better
rkthunga: manos, the topic is now rdf subcommittee...do you have comments
about this?
xcircuit: rex needs some load off...
xcircuit: yes, it is very hard to find suportive members...
xcircuit: seems noone on the list is interested on the approach?
rkthunga: henrik is interested (he is having trouble joining the conference
here however)
rkthunga: we had some technical difficultites...
xcircuit: ok
rkthunga: kurt may be interested, and rex if you needed someone
rkthunga: but you have someone in mind, that would be great...rex knows
dodds, who actually used some of humanml in his orlando presentation
rkthunga: from xmlobjects
xcircuit: i'd love to have kurt along and rex is very good and connected by
rkthunga: did you know someone else that would be interested in
in RDF
rkthunga: outside the TC?
Yahoo! Messenger: rexbroo has left the conference.
xcircuit: i can confirm interest from members of alicebot committees
xcircuit: they have background in application design and logic patterns
Yahoo! Messenger: hbrameus has joined the conference.
xcircuit: plus huge experience with natural language query/responce
xcircuit: hi henrik
hbrameus: Hello there. Finally on!
xcircuit: did i spelled that right?
hbrameus: Yes, that's perfect
xcircuit: ok
rkthunga: henrik, are you formally participating in the RDF subcommittee
xcircuit: i was wondering if you r interested in participating on the RDF
committee, once you review some related documents
xcircuit: i would like to keep things slow with this committee, so
can be solid
xcircuit: no rush, ideas, research, pseudo implementation and analysis
hbrameus: Yes, I'm interested. I will hopefully have some more time now that
the holiday
xcircuit: excellent
rkthunga: manos: would you have a brief mission statement we can post?
xcircuit: i would like to ask of interested members to each prepare a
document with points that they think we should aim for...
xcircuit: i would like to form the mission statement after that proccess
xcircuit: in general, i want everything to go through discussion, i will be
responcible for organizing posts into semi-docs
rkthunga: kurt, henrik + whoever else from alicebot would be the initial
xcircuit: great
rkthunga: if we can publish a formal mission statement with the 3, 4 of you,
we can officially start the subcommittee
xcircuit: ok, but let us take some time on that...
hbrameus: Will we do that on the closed email list, or do we have a separate
forum for those discussions?
xcircuit: we can use a yahoo list?
hbrameus: That's fine.
xcircuit: Ranjeeth?
rkthunga: it would all have to be part of the OASIS list, but it could spin
it off into a separate OASIS list
rkthunga: after it is established
xcircuit: we need a focused space
xcircuit: i wouldnt subscribe to a list where 2 out of 10 posts are of
interest to me
rkthunga: manos and henrik: we are discussing when the requirements would be
ready for all the subcommittee---we are discussing a milestone of 3/15/01
rkthunga: 3/15/02
rkthunga: do you guys agree?
xcircuit: fully.
hbrameus: Yes
rkthunga: ok, that's official.
xcircuit: about the list now...
xcircuit: we have tried again to mix different interests in one list and
rkthunga: i mentioned the 'spin-off' idea to the others...there are some
other views
hbrameus: I think that once we have established the sub commitee we should
have our own list. Until then we sould probably do discussions on Yahoo! or
something, and keep it open for others to read.
xcircuit: i agree with henrik
rkthunga: oasis is pretty clear that wouldn't work
xcircuit: then let them give us some space
hbrameus: So could you set up a separate email list for a sub comittee
straight away then?
rkthunga: kurt mentioned we should hold off, since there is not enough
traffic on this list
xcircuit: i insist that mixing totally different work in one list is a very
bad idea
xcircuit: that has caused lots of nothing during earlier months
xcircuit: cant oasis give us a list?
xcircuit: we're not asking for a deticated server or something...
rkthunga: oasis will be able to host it, most likely...i think there isn't
issue with that...if there is enough interest, we could establish the
subcommittee in principle as soon as there is a purpose statement.
rkthunga: then, we could ask OASIS to host a separate discussion list.

xcircuit: excellent, thanks
rkthunga: kurt proposed a 'schema' subcommittee, as opposed to a rdf and xml
subcommittee...i don't agree, rex doesn't agree
xcircuit: i dont agree
xcircuit: shemata should be produced from the committees of each methodology
rkthunga: because len wouldn't want to think about rdf (len isn't here, but
we are assuming this)
rkthunga: rex: they should...different requirements for each
rkthunga: they should be separate
hbrameus: And we don't want the different discussions to confuse each other
xcircuit: agreed
rkthunga: ok, end of discussion...different subcommittees
xcircuit: i may end up mixing schemata but that's another story
xcircuit: types types...
rkthunga: i propose 60% independent work at least, and 3 people, is a good
rule of thumb
rkthunga: for any subcommittee to be a good idea
xcircuit: we need more than that in the long runIMHO
xcircuit: instead of just forming a tc, or rather, having the 'tc viewpoint'
we should analyse our own aims and requierments first
rkthunga: rex: can we assume that we agree (if we disagree, we simply let
each other know), or do we want to vote individually on each issue
xcircuit: i for example cannot just go and make an rdf subcommittee, thats
why i want the discussion
xcircuit: all i want to say is, we shouldn't build committees for the
committees but for actual needs
xcircuit: individually on each issue please
rkthunga: basically, the final vote is on the TC list (not during the
meetings)...so everything is in writing
rkthunga: that is very true manos...each subcommittee will have individual
xcircuit: great, that simplifies things and everyone can document his
decisions as well
rkthunga: (general comments: oasis is changing their policy, and is more
lenient to international policy, so that is why they are letting us try
hbrameus: OK, so if we do the voting on the list we don't really need this
meeting, or alternatively we could have the agenda listing all the decisions
made, and then just have it as a FYI. That way we could shorten the meeting
to less than 30 minutes
xcircuit: yup
xcircuit: Henrik, can i expect input from you on the following two weeks?
hbrameus: Yes
rkthunga: Henrik and Manos: would you want to include XTM in your RDF
subcomittee work...something to think about
xcircuit: or, we could start with building an agenda for discussion
xcircuit: do you think this is better? and take it to the list from there?
xcircuit: XTM can certainly be a similar parallel implementation, with their
valuable support
xcircuit: meaning the XTM TC?
rkthunga: brb...i have to be off chat for a min
hbrameus: XTM and RDF has a lot in common, but differ on the initial
(top-down vs bottom-up), so I think there could be synergies, but not so
that they are that easy to combine.
xcircuit: maybe we can learn from XTM though
xcircuit: after all, we will be building semantics
hbrameus: hence the synergies
xcircuit: but their support is needed for that.. i've never used or studied
hbrameus: I know Steve Pepper a bit, so I think we could get the support we
need from there
rkthunga: rex was interested in xtm, but had some disagreements with their
approach...if any of you want to formally interface with their published
subjects discussion, that would be great
xcircuit: i am familiar with some consepts... maybe i can hope to go through
their documents in a week or so?
xcircuit: i know what a topic is so it's a start...
rkthunga: sure...it would likely be an official liasion (and as you
Henrik, probably not combined with RDF)
hbrameus: I'v also done some basic work on TM in the past as well
xcircuit: ok sounds fine to me
rkthunga: whenever any of us feels ready (that's the general telecon opinion
right now) to be a TC member of XTM published subjects, that would be great
rkthunga: we are talking about how to get more participation
rkthunga: 1) it is the end of the year, which is why it is low
rkthunga: 2) we don't have a schema we can debate about much...len's exist,
but we haven't really tried using it
rkthunga: 3) we haven't been defining any applications, and carrying them
xcircuit: i think the last one pretty sums it up
rkthunga: 4) ideas flushed out of HM.applications document (kurt is working
on XSL transformation) which would put applications on a tree, which would
showcase all sorts of ideas
xcircuit: xsl to render the document?
xcircuit: or xsl as an operation over humanml data?
xcircuit: sorry i am really dizzy 2day...
rkthunga: xsl to present our applications ideas it in a tree hierarchy
xcircuit: is SVG possible? showing relating nodes would be great
xcircuit: i wouldn't want to push him too much though!
xcircuit: i can do a version of his work to SVG once he is finished...
xcircuit: i just like the idea
hbrameus: Quick unrelated question here. I have another appointment and need
to rush. Are there any other important things we need to deal with here and
now? I have a rranged with Manos to have contact about the sub-comittee this
week, and all the voting is on the list. If you need my input right
now, "speak up or forever hold your peace".
rkthunga: regarding svg: no promises, but yes
xcircuit: ok
rkthunga: ok henrik, we'll log the rest of the meeting, and transcript...and
any other comments, you can post on the discussion list
xcircuit: about our work on schemas... we have no markup that attempts to do
what humanml was about in the first place
rkthunga: we are now talking about Rex's presentation at IBM in NY
hbrameus: OK, then I'm checking out. Good luck with the rest, and you'll see
me a bit more on the list now.
Yahoo! Messenger: hbrameus has left the conference.
rkthunga: anything you want to add to the presentation?
rkthunga: I talked about adding an 'acknowledgement' systems within web
services, to ensure human synchronicity in communications
xcircuit: not at this time, no
xcircuit: these exist and an approach will probably be standardised by the
xcircuit: web services systems always had a shoot and forget approach...
rkthunga: Kurt and Rex were thinking of an interacting ananova type
deal...for a march presentation
xcircuit: you all know my views... i have no direct interest in
presentation_descriptional_render_related markup as far as humanml goes...
xcircuit: but, i can help you find rescources on the subject, +sourcecode
rkthunga: is there anything related to messaging that you were interested
xcircuit: nope
xcircuit: everything is ready, soap and xml rpc are widelly accepted
xcircuit: we r only interested in what is inside the envelope
xcircuit: if you r talking about WS messaging that is...
rkthunga: the one protocol messaging doesn't have specs is for interactive
rkthunga: and additionally, as you said, what's inside the envelope
xcircuit: that is because messaging is not always idea for interactivity
xcircuit: messaging does not keep connections... just shoots and drops
rkthunga: (rex is talking about messaging using non HTTP communications, for
instant communication...that's what has been ignored so far
xcircuit: i think we are widening our thoughts to technologies that will
evolve the same way with or without us
xcircuit: let's keep it to the content, let others build the means for
sending/receiving and all that similar operations
xcircuit: we're not here to conquer the world
xcircuit: lol
xcircuit: i'm getting too far aren't i?
rkthunga: the channels will need to evolve to communicate human needs, since
certain infrastructures are not in place...i'll share your thoughts to the
group as well
xcircuit: really now, can someone in the list just list the things humanml
supposed to care about?
xcircuit: i think we just jump from technology talk to technology talk,
thinking of humanml as everything and nothing
rkthunga: rex and kurt followed things through pretty far...they'll stop now
rkthunga: end of formal discussion:
rkthunga: now free discussion
xcircuit: anyone talking?
xcircuit: lol
rkthunga: Rob is talking about his motion detector his company is doing
xcircuit: very interesting indeed, but form a markup design point of view
this is trivial
xcircuit: what about the markup itself?
rkthunga: instead of representing data in binary form, it would be on human
readable data
xcircuit: has anyone explored reusability of custom types from XSD or
xcircuit: thats the stuff i wanna hear...
rkthunga: by using human readable data, animations can be customized based
xcircuit: animations
xcircuit: Ranjeeth i am really sorry, but i really cannot understand how
anmation, emotions and rendering relate with misscomunication
xcircuit: neither web services to tell you the truth
rkthunga: regarding your question: no one's really explored it yet
xcircuit: i c
rkthunga: kurt is not talking measurements and data types...we were
discussing these
rkthunga: sorry, kurt IS talking measurements and data types---(I miswrote
the last sentence)
xcircuit: excellent
rkthunga: meeting has to wrap up soon...so we are going through final issues
xcircuit: think API folks... and run time abstract datatype creation
xcircuit: that should be abstract classes, sorry
rkthunga: you mean complex types?
xcircuit: nope
rkthunga: topic is now HPCML...(we have to move fast...)
xcircuit: ok, i guess we have to work individually on a number of tasks...
xcircuit: if anyone would like to ask me a question, it would be a good time
to do so
xcircuit: i'm leaving in a while
rkthunga: no questions at this point, but there will be questions on the
xcircuit: meaning the list no?
rkthunga: yeah , the discussion list
xcircuit: ok i split, I hope we will all report some progress during the
2-3 weeks
xcircuit: "Bye bye all"
rkthunga: looking forward to your rdf work, for sure! Thanks manos for
xcircuit: See you Ranjeeth, thanks for helping me to join the conversation
xcircuit: damn i hate those IM smileys
xcircuit: bye man
Yahoo! Messenger: xcircuit has left the conference.

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