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Subject: [humanmarkup] Meeting transcript -- chat
A thanks to everyone for attending the meeting, and helping us wrap up 2001. Here's a foreward of the Yahoo Conference chat, in which our international members (Henrik and Manos) participated in the teleconference, proxy myself. Loggable meetings is a big benefit of chat, which is why I propose future sessions primarily on chat, and teleconference by proxy instead, if others feel comfortable with this (the smiley's however, didn't appear in this text based transcript...too bad :(). There were a couple of questions Manos had about the relation of markup in relation to your work Rob, which I didn't get to bring up -- feel free to address them via the Discussion List. -------- Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga ------------------------------------------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger: You are now logged into voice conference - rexbroo-9311. rexbroo: hi rkt rkthunga: hey rex...could you send me the agenda to my yahoo account (i don't have it available) rkthunga: manos is here...xcircuit Yahoo! Messenger: xcircuit has joined the conference. xcircuit: hi folks rkthunga: hey manos! xcircuit: xcircuit: how is everyone? rexbroo: Hi guys, It is going to be tough for me since I don't have handsfree equipment yet. but I will do my best. rkthunga: doing pretty good...how are you manos? xcircuit: fine fine... xcircuit: who else is on? rkthunga: good we could finally figure out a way for you to meet rexbroo: just me and ranjeeth rexbroo: The stateside phone number is 1-888-316-9411 rexbroo: passcode 51383 rexbroo: that was for ranjeeth. rkthunga: i got that...thanks rkthunga: ok manos...i will be passing what's happening on teleconference to you xcircuit: ok, thnx rkthunga: agree with HPCML subcommittee? rkthunga: sudhakar is still interested in creating this xcircuit: i agree but i would like to see more emphasis in good organization of efforts xcircuit: 3 persons needed for committee IMHO as stated before xcircuit: clear roles would be great too rkthunga: i mentioned this, and rob, sudhakar, and rex are interested xcircuit: excellent rkthunga: sudhakar will be following up by January 15th rkthunga: regarding interoperability comments...if you have feedback, please post them as well xcircuit: are we going to have a mission statement/roles/blabla on the list or is this a final vote? xcircuit: meaning, as a place for conversation and further reformation or whatever rkthunga: yeah, that has been established and posted i believe on the board rkthunga: henrik is on as well xcircuit: ok, the more the better rkthunga: manos, the topic is now rdf subcommittee...do you have comments about this? xcircuit: rex needs some load off... xcircuit: yes, it is very hard to find suportive members... xcircuit: seems noone on the list is interested on the approach? rkthunga: henrik is interested (he is having trouble joining the conference here however) rkthunga: we had some technical difficultites... xcircuit: ok rkthunga: kurt may be interested, and rex if you needed someone rkthunga: but you have someone in mind, that would be great...rex knows david dodds, who actually used some of humanml in his orlando presentation rkthunga: from xmlobjects xcircuit: i'd love to have kurt along and rex is very good and connected by now rkthunga: did you know someone else that would be interested in participating in RDF rkthunga: outside the TC? Yahoo! Messenger: rexbroo has left the conference. xcircuit: i can confirm interest from members of alicebot committees xcircuit: they have background in application design and logic patterns Yahoo! Messenger: hbrameus has joined the conference. xcircuit: plus huge experience with natural language query/responce xcircuit: hi henrik hbrameus: Hello there. Finally on! xcircuit: did i spelled that right? hbrameus: Yes, that's perfect xcircuit: ok rkthunga: henrik, are you formally participating in the RDF subcommittee with Manos xcircuit: i was wondering if you r interested in participating on the RDF committee, once you review some related documents xcircuit: i would like to keep things slow with this committee, so everything can be solid xcircuit: no rush, ideas, research, pseudo implementation and analysis hbrameus: Yes, I'm interested. I will hopefully have some more time now that the holiday xcircuit: excellent rkthunga: manos: would you have a brief mission statement we can post? xcircuit: i would like to ask of interested members to each prepare a document with points that they think we should aim for... xcircuit: i would like to form the mission statement after that proccess xcircuit: in general, i want everything to go through discussion, i will be responcible for organizing posts into semi-docs rkthunga: kurt, henrik + whoever else from alicebot would be the initial members xcircuit: great rkthunga: if we can publish a formal mission statement with the 3, 4 of you, we can officially start the subcommittee xcircuit: ok, but let us take some time on that... hbrameus: Will we do that on the closed email list, or do we have a separate forum for those discussions? xcircuit: we can use a yahoo list? hbrameus: That's fine. xcircuit: Ranjeeth? rkthunga: it would all have to be part of the OASIS list, but it could spin it off into a separate OASIS list rkthunga: after it is established xcircuit: we need a focused space xcircuit: i wouldnt subscribe to a list where 2 out of 10 posts are of interest to me rkthunga: manos and henrik: we are discussing when the requirements would be ready for all the subcommittee---we are discussing a milestone of 3/15/01 rkthunga: 3/15/02 rkthunga: do you guys agree? xcircuit: fully. hbrameus: Yes rkthunga: ok, that's official. xcircuit: about the list now... xcircuit: we have tried again to mix different interests in one list and failed. rkthunga: i mentioned the 'spin-off' idea to the others...there are some other views hbrameus: I think that once we have established the sub commitee we should have our own list. Until then we sould probably do discussions on Yahoo! or something, and keep it open for others to read. xcircuit: i agree with henrik rkthunga: oasis is pretty clear that wouldn't work xcircuit: then let them give us some space hbrameus: So could you set up a separate email list for a sub comittee straight away then? rkthunga: kurt mentioned we should hold off, since there is not enough traffic on this list xcircuit: i insist that mixing totally different work in one list is a very bad idea xcircuit: that has caused lots of nothing during earlier months xcircuit: cant oasis give us a list? xcircuit: we're not asking for a deticated server or something... rkthunga: oasis will be able to host it, most likely...i think there isn't an issue with that...if there is enough interest, we could establish the subcommittee in principle as soon as there is a purpose statement. rkthunga: then, we could ask OASIS to host a separate discussion list. xcircuit: excellent, thanks rkthunga: kurt proposed a 'schema' subcommittee, as opposed to a rdf and xml subcommittee...i don't agree, rex doesn't agree xcircuit: i dont agree xcircuit: shemata should be produced from the committees of each methodology rkthunga: because len wouldn't want to think about rdf (len isn't here, but we are assuming this) rkthunga: rex: they should...different requirements for each rkthunga: they should be separate hbrameus: And we don't want the different discussions to confuse each other xcircuit: agreed rkthunga: ok, end of discussion...different subcommittees xcircuit: i may end up mixing schemata but that's another story xcircuit: types types... rkthunga: i propose 60% independent work at least, and 3 people, is a good rule of thumb rkthunga: for any subcommittee to be a good idea xcircuit: we need more than that in the long runIMHO xcircuit: instead of just forming a tc, or rather, having the 'tc viewpoint' we should analyse our own aims and requierments first rkthunga: rex: can we assume that we agree (if we disagree, we simply let each other know), or do we want to vote individually on each issue xcircuit: i for example cannot just go and make an rdf subcommittee, thats why i want the discussion xcircuit: all i want to say is, we shouldn't build committees for the committees but for actual needs xcircuit: individually on each issue please rkthunga: basically, the final vote is on the TC list (not during the meetings)...so everything is in writing rkthunga: that is very true manos...each subcommittee will have individual requirements xcircuit: great, that simplifies things and everyone can document his decisions as well rkthunga: (general comments: oasis is changing their policy, and is more lenient to international policy, so that is why they are letting us try these chats) hbrameus: OK, so if we do the voting on the list we don't really need this meeting, or alternatively we could have the agenda listing all the decisions made, and then just have it as a FYI. That way we could shorten the meeting to less than 30 minutes xcircuit: yup xcircuit: Henrik, can i expect input from you on the following two weeks? hbrameus: Yes rkthunga: Henrik and Manos: would you want to include XTM in your RDF subcomittee work...something to think about xcircuit: or, we could start with building an agenda for discussion xcircuit: do you think this is better? and take it to the list from there? xcircuit: XTM can certainly be a similar parallel implementation, with their valuable support xcircuit: meaning the XTM TC? rkthunga: brb...i have to be off chat for a min hbrameus: XTM and RDF has a lot in common, but differ on the initial approach (top-down vs bottom-up), so I think there could be synergies, but not so much that they are that easy to combine. xcircuit: maybe we can learn from XTM though xcircuit: after all, we will be building semantics hbrameus: hence the synergies xcircuit: but their support is needed for that.. i've never used or studied XTM hbrameus: I know Steve Pepper a bit, so I think we could get the support we need from there rkthunga: rex was interested in xtm, but had some disagreements with their approach...if any of you want to formally interface with their published subjects discussion, that would be great xcircuit: i am familiar with some consepts... maybe i can hope to go through their documents in a week or so? xcircuit: i know what a topic is so it's a start... rkthunga: sure...it would likely be an official liasion (and as you mentioned Henrik, probably not combined with RDF) hbrameus: I'v also done some basic work on TM in the past as well xcircuit: ok sounds fine to me rkthunga: whenever any of us feels ready (that's the general telecon opinion right now) to be a TC member of XTM published subjects, that would be great rkthunga: we are talking about how to get more participation rkthunga: 1) it is the end of the year, which is why it is low rkthunga: 2) we don't have a schema we can debate about much...len's exist, but we haven't really tried using it rkthunga: 3) we haven't been defining any applications, and carrying them forward... xcircuit: i think the last one pretty sums it up rkthunga: 4) ideas flushed out of HM.applications document (kurt is working on XSL transformation) which would put applications on a tree, which would showcase all sorts of ideas xcircuit: xsl to render the document? xcircuit: or xsl as an operation over humanml data? xcircuit: sorry i am really dizzy 2day... rkthunga: xsl to present our applications ideas it in a tree hierarchy xcircuit: is SVG possible? showing relating nodes would be great xcircuit: i wouldn't want to push him too much though! xcircuit: i can do a version of his work to SVG once he is finished... xcircuit: i just like the idea hbrameus: Quick unrelated question here. I have another appointment and need to rush. Are there any other important things we need to deal with here and now? I have a rranged with Manos to have contact about the sub-comittee this week, and all the voting is on the list. If you need my input right now, "speak up or forever hold your peace". rkthunga: regarding svg: no promises, but yes xcircuit: ok rkthunga: ok henrik, we'll log the rest of the meeting, and transcript...and any other comments, you can post on the discussion list xcircuit: about our work on schemas... we have no markup that attempts to do what humanml was about in the first place rkthunga: we are now talking about Rex's presentation at IBM in NY hbrameus: OK, then I'm checking out. Good luck with the rest, and you'll see me a bit more on the list now. Yahoo! Messenger: hbrameus has left the conference. rkthunga: anything you want to add to the presentation? rkthunga: I talked about adding an 'acknowledgement' systems within web services, to ensure human synchronicity in communications xcircuit: not at this time, no xcircuit: these exist and an approach will probably be standardised by the WS TC xcircuit: web services systems always had a shoot and forget approach... rkthunga: Kurt and Rex were thinking of an interacting ananova type deal...for a march presentation xcircuit: you all know my views... i have no direct interest in presentation_descriptional_render_related markup as far as humanml goes... xcircuit: but, i can help you find rescources on the subject, +sourcecode rkthunga: is there anything related to messaging that you were interested in? xcircuit: nope xcircuit: everything is ready, soap and xml rpc are widelly accepted technologies xcircuit: we r only interested in what is inside the envelope xcircuit: if you r talking about WS messaging that is... rkthunga: the one protocol messaging doesn't have specs is for interactive information rkthunga: and additionally, as you said, what's inside the envelope xcircuit: that is because messaging is not always idea for interactivity xcircuit: messaging does not keep connections... just shoots and drops rkthunga: (rex is talking about messaging using non HTTP communications, for instant communication...that's what has been ignored so far xcircuit: i think we are widening our thoughts to technologies that will evolve the same way with or without us xcircuit: let's keep it to the content, let others build the means for sending/receiving and all that similar operations xcircuit: we're not here to conquer the world xcircuit: lol xcircuit: i'm getting too far aren't i? rkthunga: the channels will need to evolve to communicate human needs, since certain infrastructures are not in place...i'll share your thoughts to the group as well xcircuit: really now, can someone in the list just list the things humanml is supposed to care about? xcircuit: i think we just jump from technology talk to technology talk, thinking of humanml as everything and nothing rkthunga: rex and kurt followed things through pretty far...they'll stop now rkthunga: end of formal discussion: rkthunga: now free discussion xcircuit: anyone talking? xcircuit: lol rkthunga: Rob is talking about his motion detector his company is doing xcircuit: very interesting indeed, but form a markup design point of view this is trivial xcircuit: what about the markup itself? rkthunga: instead of representing data in binary form, it would be on human readable data xcircuit: has anyone explored reusability of custom types from XSD or something? xcircuit: thats the stuff i wanna hear... rkthunga: by using human readable data, animations can be customized based on reality xcircuit: animations xcircuit: Ranjeeth i am really sorry, but i really cannot understand how anmation, emotions and rendering relate with misscomunication xcircuit: neither web services to tell you the truth rkthunga: regarding your question: no one's really explored it yet xcircuit: i c rkthunga: kurt is not talking measurements and data types...we were discussing these rkthunga: sorry, kurt IS talking measurements and data types---(I miswrote the last sentence) xcircuit: excellent rkthunga: meeting has to wrap up soon...so we are going through final issues xcircuit: think API folks... and run time abstract datatype creation (meaning classes) xcircuit: that should be abstract classes, sorry rkthunga: you mean complex types? xcircuit: nope rkthunga: topic is now HPCML...(we have to move fast...) xcircuit: ok, i guess we have to work individually on a number of tasks... xcircuit: if anyone would like to ask me a question, it would be a good time to do so xcircuit: i'm leaving in a while rkthunga: no questions at this point, but there will be questions on the board xcircuit: meaning the list no? rkthunga: yeah , the discussion list xcircuit: ok i split, I hope we will all report some progress during the next 2-3 weeks xcircuit: "Bye bye all" rkthunga: looking forward to your rdf work, for sure! Thanks manos for joining.... xcircuit: See you Ranjeeth, thanks for helping me to join the conversation xcircuit: damn i hate those IM smileys xcircuit: bye man Yahoo! Messenger: xcircuit has left the conference.
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