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Subject: [humanmarkup] TC Meeting Minutes from Dec 19, 2001
- From: Rex Brooks <firstname.lastname@example.org>
- To: email@example.com, firstname.lastname@example.org
- Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 14:11:25 -0800
Title: TC Meeting Minutes from Dec 19,
Here are the TC Minutes, which I will link to this postSunday,
December 23, 2001 with some other updates to the website.
December 19, 2001
Teleconference meeting of the OASIS HumanMarkup Technical
supplemented by a simultaneous Yahoo Instant Messaging Conference to
include Henrik Brameus from The Netherlands and Emmanuil Batsis from
Greece without requiring them to incur long duration, long-distance
The transcript of that session will be added to these minutes at the
end of the summary based on the hand-written notes of the Secretary
taken during the combined teleconference and IM session. The chair
served as the interlocutor between the two simultaneous sessions
passing information back and forth.
USA Toll-Free Call-In Number: 888-316-9411
USA Toll Call-In Number +1-773-756-4786
Emmanuil M. Batsis
Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga
Minutes taken by TC Secretary Rex Brooks
Meeting convened12:10 p.m. Eastern Time
We reviewed the circumstances of our November activities.
Due to the fact that About.com has failed to return our request for
information following up on our request to use their facilities to
conduct a loggable, publicly accessible meeting by using their chat
service, and factors of timing and individual schedules, we decided
first to postpone our November TC meeting, and then to cancel it.
With no other reports pending, we took up our outstanding Old Business
according to our posted agenda. I will designate action items with a
€ Without dissent we established The Human Physical Characteristics
Description Markup Language Subcommittee, with Sudhakar Gorti as the
chair. The statement of purpose, scope and some examples follows:
Purpose: Develop, design and provide specifications for Human
Physical Characteristics Description Markup Language. Much as the
Markup Languages has standardized the way in which information is
presented on the Internet HPCDML will be designed to standardize
description of physical characteristics of humans. HPCDML is a subset
of HumanML and through markup language concepts provides a
communication medium for end users and software community to exchange
information. The primary objective is to provide a common medium
specification for software to communicate physical characteristics.
The goal here is enhance, unify, and provide a uniform common language
for exchange of physical characteristics of humans, both visible and
invisible, which help us identify them uniquely. HPCDML will
specifically be designed to be interoperable with and as nearly as
possible identical to existing, recognized standards for the
description, identification and empirical documentation of the human
Scope: HPCDML shares the uniquely identified goals of HumanML and as a
sub set of HumanML, these goals are almost identical with exception of
the fact that HPCDML has as its primary focus the Physical Human
Characteristics both visible and invisible, most especially those
often missed or overlooked by the existing, recognized systems for the
description of human physical characteristics adopted by the medical,
public safety and law enforcement domains. The scope of HPCDML will
include markup definitions for the ontology and taxonomy of human
physical characteristics, specifications, and possibly the
standardization of Application Programming Interfaces to implement
Examples: Some examples of HPCDML are color of hair and eyes, types of
eyes, nature of forehead (low, narrow, high, broad), eyebrows (thin,
thick, connected, broken, etc.), Cheekbones, mouth, facial form, chin
etc. Each physically visible feature has types associated with each
and each type has specific characteristics.
Ranjeeth asked Sudhakar if he had had the opportunity to contact the
individual's Ranjeeth had met at the Universal Access Workshop at the
NSF in October. Sudhakar said he had not yet, but would do so soon.
This will renew our contact with scientists working on Biometrics at
Rex had sent some material to Sudhakar including the relevant material
on Human Measurement standards with which HumanMarkup needs to be
interoperable such as CAESAR (Civilian American and European Surface
Anthropometry Resource), http://www.hec.afrl.af.mil/cardlab/caesar/,
and the current prospective Humanoid Animation Specification
http://H-Anim.org/. These two related notes are mentioned now as an
indication that work is already underway in this Subcommittee.
€ In this context, Emmanuil "Manos" Batsis, made the
comment that we ought to consider it a requirement for any
Subcommittee to have at least three committed members before we
establish it formally. This suggestion was accepted by all present
without discussion or dissension, but it will be added to the items
for a formal vote at the end of these minutes.
This particular question preceded debate and discussion for a the
motion to require a formal vote conducted on the private TC Committee
mailing list. Because we recognize the need to make it possible for
full participation for all members, but especially for those who live
outside the United States of America and do not enjoy the privilege of
free long-distance teleconferencing. There was some discussion, but no
dissent, so this question will also be up for a formal decision at the
end of these minutes.
€ The motion to adopt the
practice of requiring a formal vote on all issues to be conducted
through the private OASIS HumanMarkup TC mailing list was passed
We next considered the motion to establish a milestone date for the
subcommittees and TC members as well as any interested parties from
the public comments list to collect and submit lists of element names
and definitions, as well as values for datatypes, and attribute names
and definitions, as well as values for datatypes, from the
applications areas and related XML standards and specifications we
have designated as being of particular relevance or importance for the
Human Markup Language. This task is preliminary step before we
undertake to establish a primary basic XML Schema for the Human Markup
Language. This measured approach is deemed advisable in order to
ensure that the Human Markup Language will be interoperable with both
its related specifications and the recognized and established
conventions and practices of the applications areas we aim to
€ With some debate, it was tentatively decided to place the
milestone date at March 15, 2002. This is also subject to the
ratification of our formal vote.
€ The question was raised on the issue of creating a Subcommittee to
conduct the work of creating the RDF Schema for the Human Markup
Language. We had previously designated Manos Batsis as the head of
this effort, and now it is deemed, again, without dissension that the
issue needs to be investigated. However, what we decided was to put
this question on the agenda for the next TC Meeting with the intent to
establish the Subcommittee at that time, allowing Manos the time to
work out a purpose, scope and examples statement detailing this effort
It was, however, determined that there were at least three volunteers
prepared to commit their time and effort to this task.
It was noted also that the task of keeping abreast of the work being
done in the Topic Maps Published Subject TC is more closely related to
RDF than other areas of interest and it is hoped that someone with a
keen interest in this area will step forward to take on this role.
In a related note, it should be mentioned that we have deferred the
issue of forming a separate Subcommittee for conducting the main task
of our committee, namely creating a basic XML Schema and setting the
requirements necessary for successive, more specific, extension
schemata in the modular approach we have adopted. Len Bullard is the
Invited Expert whom we have asked to head this overall effort, and it
appears that he is or was on vacation at the time of the TC Meeting,
so we could not coordinate a decision about proceeding with this task
at this time.
We discussed the end-user survey as a tool to gather requirements and
asked Joe to update it with that in mind. Joe also indicated that work
in his Subcommittee on HumanML_Write and HumanML_Report was
proceeding. Rex said that he was willing to help in what ways he
There were a number of interesting discussions which did not resolve
into motions, so need not be mentioned, except to say that it is
always encouraging to take the opportunity to share information and
ideas about how we can proceed with our work.
Rex asked for any requests and/or help in preparing a presentation in
paper and on the web for the upcoming initial meeting of the OASIS Web
Services Component Model TC which he will be attending Jan. 7-9, 2002
in Hawthorne, NY to represent the interrelationships between Human
Markup and Web Services Component Model work respectively.
Ranjeeth specifically asked that the question of how some
acknowledgement method might be developed so that parties engaged in
the attempt to communicate can check to see if indeed messages are
received in the way they are intended.
We discussed some of the ramifications of Rob Nixon's access to the
information being developed by the company he is employed with in
their use of a Full-Body-Suit Motion-Capture system. Tokenizing speech
and gestures offer some intriguing opportunities which the AI-VR
Subcommittee will explore.
We then ran out of time and
adjourned the meeting without dissent.
Issues for confirmation votes will be listed by number after the
following transcript of the simultaneous Yahoo IM Conference chat,
separated by horizontal rules.
X-From_: email@example.com Wed Dec 19
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:49:25 -0500
From: Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: [humanmarkup] Meeting transcript -- chat
To: OASIS TC MAIN <email@example.com>
A thanks to everyone for attending the meeting, and helping us wrap up
Here's a foreward of the Yahoo Conference chat, in which our
members (Henrik and Manos) participated in the teleconference, proxy
Loggable meetings is a big benefit of chat, which is why I propose
sessions primarily on chat, and teleconference by proxy instead, if
feel comfortable with this (the smiley's however, didn't appear in
based transcript...too bad :().
There were a couple of questions Manos had about the relation of
relation to your work Rob, which I didn't get to bring up -- feel free
address them via the Discussion List.
Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga
Yahoo! Messenger: You are now logged into voice conference -
rexbroo: hi rkt
rkthunga: hey rex...could you send me the agenda to my yahoo account
have it available)
rkthunga: manos is here...xcircuit
Yahoo! Messenger: xcircuit has joined the conference.
xcircuit: hi folks
rkthunga: hey manos!
xcircuit: how is everyone?
rexbroo: Hi guys, It is going to be tough for me since I don't
equipment yet. but I will do my best.
rkthunga: doing pretty good...how are you manos?
xcircuit: fine fine...
xcircuit: who else is on?
rkthunga: good we could finally figure out a way for you to meet
rexbroo: just me and ranjeeth
rexbroo: The stateside phone number is 1-888-316-9411
rexbroo: passcode 51383
rexbroo: that was for ranjeeth.
rkthunga: i got that...thanks
rkthunga: ok manos...i will be passing what's happening on
xcircuit: ok, thnx
rkthunga: agree with HPCML subcommittee?
rkthunga: sudhakar is still interested in creating this
xcircuit: i agree but i would like to see more emphasis in good
xcircuit: 3 persons needed for committee IMHO as stated
xcircuit: clear roles would be great too
rkthunga: i mentioned this, and rob, sudhakar, and rex are
rkthunga: sudhakar will be following up by January 15th
rkthunga: regarding interoperability comments...if you have feedback,
post them as well
xcircuit: are we going to have a mission statement/roles/blabla on the
or is this a final vote?
xcircuit: meaning, as a place for conversation and further reformation
rkthunga: yeah, that has been established and posted i believe on the
rkthunga: henrik is on as well
xcircuit: ok, the more the better
rkthunga: manos, the topic is now rdf subcommittee...do you have
xcircuit: rex needs some load off...
xcircuit: yes, it is very hard to find suportive members...
xcircuit: seems noone on the list is interested on the approach?
rkthunga: henrik is interested (he is having trouble joining the
rkthunga: we had some technical difficultites...
rkthunga: kurt may be interested, and rex if you needed someone
rkthunga: but you have someone in mind, that would be great...rex
dodds, who actually used some of humanml in his orlando
rkthunga: from xmlobjects
xcircuit: i'd love to have kurt along and rex is very good and
rkthunga: did you know someone else that would be interested in
rkthunga: outside the TC?
Yahoo! Messenger: rexbroo has left the conference.
xcircuit: i can confirm interest from members of alicebot
xcircuit: they have background in application design and logic
Yahoo! Messenger: hbrameus has joined the conference.
xcircuit: plus huge experience with natural language
xcircuit: hi henrik
hbrameus: Hello there. Finally on!
xcircuit: did i spelled that right?
hbrameus: Yes, that's perfect
rkthunga: henrik, are you formally participating in the RDF
xcircuit: i was wondering if you r interested in participating on the
committee, once you review some related documents
xcircuit: i would like to keep things slow with this committee, so
can be solid
xcircuit: no rush, ideas, research, pseudo implementation and
hbrameus: Yes, I'm interested. I will hopefully have some more time
rkthunga: manos: would you have a brief mission statement we can
xcircuit: i would like to ask of interested members to each prepare
document with points that they think we should aim for...
xcircuit: i would like to form the mission statement after that
xcircuit: in general, i want everything to go through discussion, i
responcible for organizing posts into semi-docs
rkthunga: kurt, henrik + whoever else from alicebot would be the
rkthunga: if we can publish a formal mission statement with the 3, 4
we can officially start the subcommittee
xcircuit: ok, but let us take some time on that...
hbrameus: Will we do that on the closed email list, or do we have a
forum for those discussions?
xcircuit: we can use a yahoo list?
hbrameus: That's fine.
rkthunga: it would all have to be part of the OASIS list, but it could
it off into a separate OASIS list
rkthunga: after it is established
xcircuit: we need a focused space
xcircuit: i wouldnt subscribe to a list where 2 out of 10 posts are
interest to me
rkthunga: manos and henrik: we are discussing when the requirements
ready for all the subcommittee---we are discussing a milestone of
rkthunga: do you guys agree?
rkthunga: ok, that's official.
xcircuit: about the list now...
xcircuit: we have tried again to mix different interests in one list
rkthunga: i mentioned the 'spin-off' idea to the others...there are
hbrameus: I think that once we have established the sub commitee we
have our own list. Until then we sould probably do discussions on
something, and keep it open for others to read.
xcircuit: i agree with henrik
rkthunga: oasis is pretty clear that wouldn't work
xcircuit: then let them give us some space
hbrameus: So could you set up a separate email list for a sub
straight away then?
rkthunga: kurt mentioned we should hold off, since there is not
traffic on this list
xcircuit: i insist that mixing totally different work in one list is a
xcircuit: that has caused lots of nothing during earlier months
xcircuit: cant oasis give us a list?
xcircuit: we're not asking for a deticated server or something...
rkthunga: oasis will be able to host it, most likely...i think there
issue with that...if there is enough interest, we could establish
subcommittee in principle as soon as there is a purpose statement.
rkthunga: then, we could ask OASIS to host a separate discussion
xcircuit: excellent, thanks
rkthunga: kurt proposed a 'schema' subcommittee, as opposed to a rdf
subcommittee...i don't agree, rex doesn't agree
xcircuit: i dont agree
xcircuit: shemata should be produced from the committees of each
rkthunga: because len wouldn't want to think about rdf (len isn't
we are assuming this)
rkthunga: rex: they should...different requirements for each
rkthunga: they should be separate
hbrameus: And we don't want the different discussions to confuse each
rkthunga: ok, end of discussion...different subcommittees
xcircuit: i may end up mixing schemata but that's another story
xcircuit: types types...
rkthunga: i propose 60% independent work at least, and 3 people, is a
rule of thumb
rkthunga: for any subcommittee to be a good idea
xcircuit: we need more than that in the long runIMHO
xcircuit: instead of just forming a tc, or rather, having the 'tc
we should analyse our own aims and requierments first
rkthunga: rex: can we assume that we agree (if we disagree, we simply
each other know), or do we want to vote individually on each issue
xcircuit: i for example cannot just go and make an rdf subcommittee,
why i want the discussion
xcircuit: all i want to say is, we shouldn't build committees for
committees but for actual needs
xcircuit: individually on each issue please
rkthunga: basically, the final vote is on the TC list (not during
meetings)...so everything is in writing
rkthunga: that is very true manos...each subcommittee will have
xcircuit: great, that simplifies things and everyone can document
decisions as well
rkthunga: (general comments: oasis is changing their policy, and is
lenient to international policy, so that is why they are letting us
hbrameus: OK, so if we do the voting on the list we don't really need
meeting, or alternatively we could have the agenda listing all the
made, and then just have it as a FYI. That way we could shorten the
to less than 30 minutes
xcircuit: Henrik, can i expect input from you on the following two
rkthunga: Henrik and Manos: would you want to include XTM in your
subcomittee work...something to think about
xcircuit: or, we could start with building an agenda for
xcircuit: do you think this is better? and take it to the list from
xcircuit: XTM can certainly be a similar parallel implementation, with
xcircuit: meaning the XTM TC?
rkthunga: brb...i have to be off chat for a min
hbrameus: XTM and RDF has a lot in common, but differ on the
(top-down vs bottom-up), so I think there could be synergies, but not
that they are that easy to combine.
xcircuit: maybe we can learn from XTM though
xcircuit: after all, we will be building semantics
hbrameus: hence the synergies
xcircuit: but their support is needed for that.. i've never used or
hbrameus: I know Steve Pepper a bit, so I think we could get the
need from there
rkthunga: rex was interested in xtm, but had some disagreements with
approach...if any of you want to formally interface with their
subjects discussion, that would be great
xcircuit: i am familiar with some consepts... maybe i can hope to go
their documents in a week or so?
xcircuit: i know what a topic is so it's a start...
rkthunga: sure...it would likely be an official liasion (and as
Henrik, probably not combined with RDF)
hbrameus: I'v also done some basic work on TM in the past as well
xcircuit: ok sounds fine to me
rkthunga: whenever any of us feels ready (that's the general telecon
right now) to be a TC member of XTM published subjects, that would be
rkthunga: we are talking about how to get more participation
rkthunga: 1) it is the end of the year, which is why it is low
rkthunga: 2) we don't have a schema we can debate about much...len's
but we haven't really tried using it
rkthunga: 3) we haven't been defining any applications, and carrying
xcircuit: i think the last one pretty sums it up
rkthunga: 4) ideas flushed out of HM.applications document (kurt is
on XSL transformation) which would put applications on a tree, which
showcase all sorts of ideas
xcircuit: xsl to render the document?
xcircuit: or xsl as an operation over humanml data?
xcircuit: sorry i am really dizzy 2day...
rkthunga: xsl to present our applications ideas it in a tree
xcircuit: is SVG possible? showing relating nodes would be great
xcircuit: i wouldn't want to push him too much though!
xcircuit: i can do a version of his work to SVG once he is
xcircuit: i just like the idea
hbrameus: Quick unrelated question here. I have another appointment
to rush. Are there any other important things we need to deal with
now? I have a rranged with Manos to have contact about the
week, and all the voting is on the list. If you need my input
now, "speak up or forever hold your peace".
rkthunga: regarding svg: no promises, but yes
rkthunga: ok henrik, we'll log the rest of the meeting, and
any other comments, you can post on the discussion list
xcircuit: about our work on schemas... we have no markup that attempts
what humanml was about in the first place
rkthunga: we are now talking about Rex's presentation at IBM in NY
hbrameus: OK, then I'm checking out. Good luck with the rest, and
me a bit more on the list now.
Yahoo! Messenger: hbrameus has left the conference.
rkthunga: anything you want to add to the presentation?
rkthunga: I talked about adding an 'acknowledgement' systems within
services, to ensure human synchronicity in communications
xcircuit: not at this time, no
xcircuit: these exist and an approach will probably be standardised by
xcircuit: web services systems always had a shoot and forget
rkthunga: Kurt and Rex were thinking of an interacting ananova
deal...for a march presentation
xcircuit: you all know my views... i have no direct interest in
presentation_descriptional_render_related markup as far as humanml
xcircuit: but, i can help you find rescources on the subject,
rkthunga: is there anything related to messaging that you were
xcircuit: everything is ready, soap and xml rpc are widelly
xcircuit: we r only interested in what is inside the envelope
xcircuit: if you r talking about WS messaging that is...
rkthunga: the one protocol messaging doesn't have specs is for
rkthunga: and additionally, as you said, what's inside the
xcircuit: that is because messaging is not always idea for
xcircuit: messaging does not keep connections... just shoots and
rkthunga: (rex is talking about messaging using non HTTP
instant communication...that's what has been ignored so far
xcircuit: i think we are widening our thoughts to technologies that
evolve the same way with or without us
xcircuit: let's keep it to the content, let others build the means
sending/receiving and all that similar operations
xcircuit: we're not here to conquer the world
xcircuit: i'm getting too far aren't i?
rkthunga: the channels will need to evolve to communicate human needs,
certain infrastructures are not in place...i'll share your thoughts to
group as well
xcircuit: really now, can someone in the list just list the things
supposed to care about?
xcircuit: i think we just jump from technology talk to technology
thinking of humanml as everything and nothing
rkthunga: rex and kurt followed things through pretty far...they'll
rkthunga: end of formal discussion:
rkthunga: now free discussion
xcircuit: anyone talking?
rkthunga: Rob is talking about his motion detector his company is
xcircuit: very interesting indeed, but form a markup design point of
this is trivial
xcircuit: what about the markup itself?
rkthunga: instead of representing data in binary form, it would be on
xcircuit: has anyone explored reusability of custom types from XSD
xcircuit: thats the stuff i wanna hear...
rkthunga: by using human readable data, animations can be customized
xcircuit: Ranjeeth i am really sorry, but i really cannot understand
anmation, emotions and rendering relate with misscomunication
xcircuit: neither web services to tell you the truth
rkthunga: regarding your question: no one's really explored it yet
xcircuit: i c
rkthunga: kurt is not talking measurements and data types...we
rkthunga: sorry, kurt IS talking measurements and data types---(I
the last sentence)
rkthunga: meeting has to wrap up soon...so we are going through final
xcircuit: think API folks... and run time abstract datatype
xcircuit: that should be abstract classes, sorry
rkthunga: you mean complex types?
rkthunga: topic is now HPCML...(we have to move fast...)
xcircuit: ok, i guess we have to work individually on a number of
xcircuit: if anyone would like to ask me a question, it would be a
to do so
xcircuit: i'm leaving in a while
rkthunga: no questions at this point, but there will be questions on
xcircuit: meaning the list no?
rkthunga: yeah , the discussion list
xcircuit: ok i split, I hope we will all report some progress during
xcircuit: "Bye bye all"
rkthunga: looking forward to your rdf work, for sure! Thanks manos
xcircuit: See you Ranjeeth, thanks for helping me to join the
xcircuit: damn i hate those IM smileys
xcircuit: bye man
Yahoo! Messenger: xcircuit has left the conference.
Issues for Vote, Yay or Nay. Please vote by number on the
firstname.lastname@example.org mailing list.
1. Establish the Human Physical Characteristics Description
Markup Language Subcommittee with Sudhakar Gorti as chair.
2. Require 3 members for any Subcommittee of the OASIS
HumanMarkup Technical Committee.
3. Confirm the decision to
require a formal vote on all issues to be conducted through the
private OASIS HumanMarkup TC mailing list.
4. Establish the date of March 15, 2002 as the milestone target
date for collecting element names, attribute names, their definitions
and associated values for datatypes from applications areas
specifically related to Subcommittees and to HumanMarkup in general
for consideration and harmonization in the basic XML Schema for the
Human Markup Language.
Please vote by December 29, 2001. Votes will be privately
solicited afterward until a formal declaration of all decisions can be
OASIS HumanMarkup TC Secretary
GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison, Berkeley, CA, 94702 USA, Earth
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