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Subject: Mtg. recap and poll of availability for next time
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Hello All,
I’m unable to recapture these discussions for a separate Pacific Rim meeting. Perhaps, those folks and I can brainstorm ways to keep them engaged with committee work. I’ve pasted
the chat transcript below, for what it’s worth. Please, everyone, take my Doodle poll
here to check-off your availability for the next meeting. The proposals are to move our meeting later by one hour on Feb. 17, or to meet instead the next week, Feb. 24.
Melanie Melanie Knapp: Please record your attendance: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/legalcitem/event.php?event_id=42272 parisse: Hello Melanie Melanie Knapp: Bon jour, Parisse! How are you? Melanie Knapp: I'm just now dialing in... Thomas Francart: https://wiki.oasis-open.org/legalcitem/LCMReferences Thomas Francart: I have inserted comments prefixed with [THOMAS : anonymous morphed into Kris Daniel Bennett: all this is metadata Melanie Knapp: Thomas, Melanie, John, and Daniel are having a rich conversation. Is anyone else on the call? Melanie Knapp: Fabio has messaged me that he is on the way in a few minutes. Fabio Vitali: hello Melanie Knapp: Hi fabio! Melanie Knapp: Please go to Thomas's link above. Melanie Knapp: Hi Monica, please see Thomas's comments in the link above. Melanie Knapp: I'd like to move the discussion to Thomas's document that he sent by email and the link above. Melanie Knapp: We have limited time, and I think his concrete example makes for good discussion. Melanie Knapp: Are we ready to transition? John Joergensen: hi Melanie Knapp: Hi John. Are you on the call, too? John Dann: John D... yes Melanie Knapp: Other JOhn, I meant. (-; Daniel Bennett: there should be a standard for taking reference and mapping it to a document. Melanie Knapp: Fabio, we lost your voice. Fabio Vitali: DAMNNNNN!!!! Fabio Vitali: sorry Daniel Bennett: essentially this appears to be a anti-standardization where there is an opaque method of converting a reference to a specific collection Daniel Bennett: also opaque in the eli example is knowing what the values/variables could be. Monica3: So ELI is a methodology, not a standard. John Joergensen: Melanie, yes I'm here! Daniel Bennett: i believe we should be creating a standard way to model any body of law that can allow for a schema for the body, similar to how FRBR has standardized modeling manifestations. Monica3: The problem of John is the order and the hierachy. Daniel Bennett: yes, because we do not have a standard for modeling law that meets the needs of the authorities of the body of law Fabio Vitali: 2014/02/02 Fabio Vitali: 2014/05/07 Daniel Bennett: or addressed how to deal with the conflicts between a generic approach to an inside view and authentic source of modeling the references Fabio Vitali: us-ca Fabio Vitali: ca-us Monica3: @Thomas: the canonical ELI format is based date of publication and on the media of publication. What happen if the same document is published in two different media (regional/national bulettin) and in different dates (end of 2015 and beginning of 2016)? do the two publications have a different ELI (WORK) URI? Daniel Bennett: because there is no extensibility and way to express in a schema in our current approach we will continue to have a standard that meets the issues I have raisded Fabio Vitali: [2015, 03, 05] Daniel Bennett: date, jurisdictions should reference specific standards, ISO within a schema Fabio Vitali: [2015, '3, 05, 13, 00, 00] Thomas Francart: Agreed : there should be a way to express hierarchical values, without imposing values. Situations : dates, jurisdiction, languages John Joergensen: Is this not the same objection that we addressed earlier on? ELI as a document identifier standard that needs to be used by various parties for various purposes needs to be flexible in its format, and is therefore (for other reasons as well, but for this here) non-heirarchical. In our case, we are marking up CITATIONS. This is a different thing for different purposes. A heirarchical citation format does not need to be as flexible and actually should not be. And, since it is resolvers that are going to be using this technology all the time, and there is no reason why a non-heirarchical ELI document identifier cannot easily be resolved into a heirarchical citation string, there is no problem here. Daniel Bennett: in US Congress date is specific to Congress, not to a generic approach Monica3: Additionally: suppose to have the following case (like in Italy) LOV nr 1230 af 26/12/2015 but published in 2016. Daniel Bennett: actually this is too generic to create standardization as opposed to schemas that allow extensibility Daniel Bennett: date does not work for US Congress in my opinion Daniel Bennett: however, I could model and express the use of congressional time frames in a standard way if we allowed for extensibility Daniel Bennett: forgetting the use of other calendars, lunar, lunar Chinese, Jewish.... Daniel Bennett: opaque reference fixing Daniel Bennett: opaque interpretation frame system if there is no standard modeling expressed/documented Thomas Francart: @Monica3 : will answer to questions in a separate email Melanie Knapp: we are now looking at the wiki: https://wiki.oasis-open.org/legalcitem/LCMReferences Monica3: I will send to you an email. Daniel Bennett: seems like a non-standard and opaque interpretation methodology Daniel Bennett: why not have referenced schema so that the "interpretation" is not opaque. Daniel Bennett: third frame could be a reference to the model or schema of the instance of the body of law to allow for machine readablity of the citation Daniel Bennett: we should have a model frame for an instance of body of law, which would standardize the interpretive by machine possibility. Melanie Knapp: Our time is up. We should conclude with ideas for next time. Melanie Knapp: Fabio is suggesting that people should modify prose in his wiki and on his document. Then we can discuss the changes. Melanie Knapp: Thank you everyone! Ciao! |
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