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Subject: Re: [office] Re: [office-metadata] Re: [office] Suggested ODF1.2items


Svante,

Svante Schubert wrote:

> Hi Patrick,
>
> why limit meta data to the XML structure?

Err, well, we don't. At least in the sense that one can always add 
metadata to the content, but yes, I suppose it is always tied to XML 
structure. Even if that is simply span.

I don't think you escape that by using milestones since there is always 
structure in the file that denotes the beginning and end of the 
application of the metadata.

Milestones are one way to handle such data but note that they do no 
exist in relationship to the document hierarchy.

>
> Not everything is given in the same hierarchy.

Actually I have argued privately with some of my fellow researchers in 
overlapping markup that non-overlapping structures are the special case 
and that overlapping structures are the general case. ;-) Look at any 
printed work and note that paragraphs commonly "overlap" the page 
boundaries.

>
> A user might mark half of a table and the following paragraph and 
> relate it with an arbitrary semantic.
> Shall we pop up an error message or round to next full element?
>
Good example.

But, let's not confuse what the user is "marking" with what is happening 
on the other side of the screen. Say that a user selects half a table 
and the following paragraph to attach some arbitrary semantic. On the 
markup side of the screen, what is to prevent me from using well formed 
markup to mark the half-table and paragraph separately but pointing to 
the same arbitrary semantic?

> Have you any bad feelings with the second attribute based approach?
>
If I am reading it correctly it looks like you have a milestone in the 
first one and an open/close element in the second, although they are 
concatenated. Yes?

Steve DeRose actually did a presentation at Extreme Markup on a 
variation we developed for a Bible encoding project where there are two 
milestone elements that are linked by startID and endID (only one 
allowed in each) to deal with overlapping markup. Your xsl:key 
suggestion would work here.

I have misgivings about the use of a milestone plus a more normal 
start/end tag. Mixing markup techniques as it were seems prone to problems.

Would you allow two milestones in addition to milestone plus a regular 
element?

That would give implementers two ways to accomplish the same end, not 
often a good idea.

> Best regards,
> Svante
> (-: who is having a great day and is hoping you enjoy it, too :-)
>
Great! I finished printing OOXML today and when I get it bound into 
binders I will post a photo of it. Some leisure reading for the 
holidays. ;-)

Hope you continue to have a great day!

Patrick

> Patrick Durusau wrote:
>
>> Svante,
>>
>> I just saw Daniel Carrera's response to this proposal.
>>
>> I have spent a number of years working on the overlap problem in 
>> markup so it is no stranger but what I am missing in this case is why 
>> a field would ever need to cross markup boundaries?
>>
>> Hope you are having a great day!
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>> Svante Schubert wrote:
>>
>>> Hi everybody,
>>>
>>> Patrick Durusau wrote:
>>>
>>>> Florian,
>>>>
>>>> Florian Reuter wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Bruce,
>>>>>
>>>>> the problem here is that we need to be able to encode documents like
>>>>>
>>>>> <p><span/><field-start/><span/><p>
>>>>> <p><span/><field-end/></p>
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Did you mean:
>>>>
>>>> <p><span/><field-start/><span/></p>
>>>> <p><span/><field-end/></p>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ah, are both <field-start> and <field-end> empty elements?
>>>>
>>>> To put it another way: What is the content that is being surrounded 
>>>> by the <field-*> tags?
>>>>
>>>
>>> The problem of marking an area that is not relative to the XML 
>>> structure can be solved in different ways, I see two simple approaches:
>>>
>>>
>>> 1) As Florian suggested, using an empty start and end tag as marker:
>>>
>>> Florian's approach (a little more complicated example, by adding a 
>>> further span)
>>> <p><span/><field-start/><span/></p>
>>> <p><span/><field-end/><span/></p>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pro - The size:
>>> Only two XML elements for marking the area
>>>
>>> Con - The new complexity for XML based applications:
>>> From the view of a XML element it is very hard to find out if part 
>>> of a certain field/area or a field/area at all
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2) By a 'concatenation' of elements using the same attribute:
>>>
>>> Let's call it the XML friendly approach:
>>> <p><span/><span meta:class="foo"/></p>
>>> <p><span meta:class="foo"><span/></p>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pro - Easy to handle for XML based applications:
>>> e.g. XSLT uses xsl:key
>>>
>>> Con - The Size:
>>> Often more than two XML attributes for marking an area
>>>
>>>
>>> Weighting the pro/con I see currently no reason to use the first 
>>> approach and neglect the second, have I overseen something?
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Svante
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>

-- 
Patrick Durusau
Patrick@Durusau.net
Chair, V1 - Text Processing: Office and Publishing Systems Interface
Co-Editor, ISO 13250, Topic Maps -- Reference Model
Member, Text Encoding Initiative Board of Directors, 2003-2005

Topic Maps: Human, not artificial, intelligence at work! 




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