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Subject: Re: [office] Re: [office-comment] Re: my comments onthe numbering spec proposal discussed by David F. andFlorian R.

Hi Michael,

if you think that <text:list>s and <text:numbered-paragraph>s can be transformed between each other according to Olivers
proposal than I would like to ask you or Oliver to specify how --- personally I have not yet found a way to convert
between them.

I stronly discourage the definition of two incompatible list definitions. I like the statement made in the current ISO
spec that the two types of list definitions are equal. I see no value of having two incompatible ways of specifiying


>>> Michael Brauer - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg <Michael.Brauer@Sun.COM> 01/15/07 3:32 PM >>>
Hi Florian,

Florian Reuter wrote:
> Hi Oliver,
> your proposal/suggestion/comment seems to violate the statement explicitly made in the ODF spec:
> "A list in <text:list> representation could be converted into a list in <text:numbered-paragraph> representation and
> vice versa."

You are refereing to section 4.3.4, which in says:

"Numbered paragraphs may use the same continuous numbering attributes that list items use, 
and thus form an equivalent, alternative way of specifying lists. A list in <text:list> 
representation can be converted into a list in <text:numbered-paragraph> representation 
and vice versa."

Well, I'm not sure if Oliver's proposal really violates this statement, because it only 
says that numbered paragraphs can be converted into lists and back, but it does not say 
how. Anyway, it is of course an option to remove this statement if we think it is not true 
any longer.

Actually, I think Oliver's proposal is a very good compromise between the two proposals we 
had (to add a list-id to lists and numbered-paragraphs, or to add a style-overwrite 
attribute to lists and numbered-paragraphs):

Lists define which counter is used for numbering by their structure. Numbered paragraph's 
don't have this structure. The list-id attributes solves this, that is, the list-id 
attribute does for numbered paragraphs what the the list elements do for lists.

Each numbered paragraph specifies its own list style. Lists define only one style for the 
full (nested list). They therefore lack a possibility to define a different list style for 
a certain list item. The style overwrite attribute again solves this particular issue.

Best regards


> I therfore disagree with your proposal/suggestion/comment.
> ~Florian
>>>> Oliver-Rainer Wittmann - Software Engineer - Sun Microsystems <Oliver-Rainer.Wittmann@Sun.COM> 01/09/07 12:14 PM
> David Faure wrote:
>> On Monday 11 December 2006 17:22, Michael Brauer - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> The original ODF list concept is that we have <text:list> elements in the content, and a 
>>> list style. Each list has its own numbering. That is, if I have two <text:list> elements 
>>> they both start with 1. 
>> This seems sensible. Note that it contradicts Oliver's interpretation ("If you want to use the same list
>> style for two separate lists, then you have to define for the second list, that the numbering has to restart.")
>>> When using <text:list> elements the list styles only specifies the  
>>> layout of the list. The lists themselves are identified by <text:list> elements, but not 
>>> by the style name. 
>>> The only problem we have is that we cannot change the style within a  
>>> list. The style:overwrite attribute that has been proposed would solve this.
>> ... so you would agree with the style:overwrite attribute being a text:list-item attribute rather than text:list
> attribute, right?
>> Otherwise you need two <text:list>s to change the style and this breaks the structure.
>> E.g. my 1/2/3/A/B example should be modelled as only one text:list, not two.
>> Another example would be differently-numbered subsections, like:
>> 1.
>>   1.1.
>>   1.2.
>> 2.
>>   2.A)
>>   2.B)
>> In this example it really is just one list, otherwise the numbering will end up being wrong.
>> This example also shows why we (koffice) dislike the "define 10 levels in one list style".
>> Not all items in this list use the same style. style-override at the item level solves this indeed,
>> although it requires that one style is the "normal" one and the other one is the "override"
>> With text:numbered-paragraph and one level per list style, the above would simply 6 numbered
>> paragraphs pointing to whichever style they want to use.
>> ====
>> To be fair, if OOo is supposed to be implement text:list correctly, then I'm still very confused
>> by the semantics. For instance if I increase the level (e.g. using the tab key) I get two paragraphs
>> with the same number, see attached document. For 4 paragraphs of depths of 1/1/2/2, I would 
>> expect to get A/B/a/b or A/B/1/2 or A/B/<nothing>/<nothing> or A/B/A/B if the same style is 
>> defined for level 2, but certainly not A/B/B/C !?
>> Why does ODF define 10 levels in one style, while even the OOo GUI doesn't do that? "Numbering 4"
>> is "A) B) C) D)", but doesn't say anything about what happens at level 2 and below.
>> Not that I would want it to :) But then I would assume that A) B) is used at level 2 as well, unless
>> I select another numbering style for those paragraphs.
>>> We later introduced <text:numbered-paragraph> elements. The problem we face here is that 
>>> we don't have a <text:list> element, and therefore no way to decide to which list (or 
>>> numbering) they belong. One option would be to define that they all belong to the same 
>>> numbering, and to add an attribute that starts the numbering at a certain paragraph. Other 
>>> options are to re-use the list-style, or to use list-ids. I don't have a clear opinion 
>>> what is the best solution, but I think it is a different issue than the one for the list 
>>> elements, and we should discuss it independent of it.
>> I agree, that the issue is different and should be solved independently. 
>> "All belong to the same numbering" is actually more or less what we do in koffice.
>> For any numbered paragraph, we go up and find other numbered paragraphs of the same level
>> to find out what this paragraph's number is; and any upper-level (or outline) paragraph stops
>> the search.
>> However the notion of a list-id for a bit more structure sounds nice, and from what I recall,
>> MSWord lists also have the equivalent of a list-id, this is where this idea mostly comes from.
> Hi all,
> ok, my interpretation of the list style is some how OpenOffice.org driven.
> I agree that each <text:list> element starts a new list. OpenOffice.org 
> uses attribute text:continue-numbering="true" to achieve the 
> interpretation, that all lists using the same list style belong together.
> I propose that all <text:numbered-paragraph> by default should belong to 
> *one* list. Thus, by <text:numbered-paragraph> a list with different 
> list styles is possible.
> I propose to introduce the attribute text:style-override for the 
> <text:list-item> element to support different list styles inside a list 
> defined by the <text:list> element.
> I propose to introduce the attribute text:list-id for the 
> <text:numbered-paragraph> element to define a group of 
> <text:numbered-paragraph> element to belong to an own list.
> Regards, Oliver.

Michael Brauer, Technical Architect Software Engineering
Sun Microsystems GmbH             Nagelsweg 55
D-20097 Hamburg, Germany          michael.brauer@sun.com
http://sun.com/staroffice         +49 40 23646 500

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