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Subject: RE: [regrep-semantic] [UDEF]
Carl- Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was responding to the notion of UDEF as an 'enforced' structure from a processing standpoint. I tried to find Zach's original question on this thread and couldn't, my apologies, because I'm new to the list I may not have seen a particular post. Generally speaking, I cannot think of an instance where a use case involving the decomposition and storage of implicit UDEF lattices in an ebXML reg/rep would be useful to someone. (maybe a grad student could write a quasi-inferencing/reasoning tool based upon it?) But I'm probably misunderstanding the whole question here. Again, I apologize if I've missed the context of the original thread. Regards, -Jeff- -----Original Message----- From: Carl Mattocks [mailto:carlmattocks@checkmi.com] Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 6:08 PM To: Jeff Pollock Cc: John Gillerman; regrep-semantic@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [regrep-semantic] [UDEF] Ok - If UDEF is a fine example of an applied 'Naming Convention' would it be possible to identify 'class words' and / or 'GUID-like patterns' and map them to a (manufacturing ? ) ontology and create a lattice structure ? If so -does this address Zach's orginal question ? <quote who="Jeff Pollock"> > Actually, the notion that UDEF has an 'enforced' semantic structure is not > true in my humble opinion. When I first started looking into UDEF back in > 2000/2001 the approach was primarily a 'naming convention standard' for > tags. (that if everyone would just name tags the same way then all of our > interoperability problems would disappear). Despite some of the recent > changes to adopt GUID-like patterns for atomic concepts, it is still a > convention that is almost wholly in the hands of the modeler and/or tag > namer person. Any 'semantic pattern' that is based on the notion that > modelers will model things with the same approach (or concepts, for that > matter) is bound to fail. There is plenty of evidence for this in the ER, > OO and XML worlds. In short, I don't think that the UDEF 'structure and > meaning' is relevant (or enforced) in a machine-processable way (unlike > other true , but admittedly more complex, knowledge representation > formats). > > -Jeff- > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Gillerman [mailto:john.gillerman@sisconet.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 8:42 AM > To: regrep-semantic@lists.oasis-open.org > Subject: RE: [regrep-semantic] [UDEF] > > > Yes, I agree that URI's and GUID's don't have a semantic structure, and so > are not strictly equivalent to UDEF ID's. However, I would suggest that > this is a good thing for our purposes - even if it might not have been > what > Joe was asking about. > > -----Original Message----- > From: David RR Webber [mailto:david@drrw.info] > Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 11:35 AM > To: John Gillerman; regrep-semantic@lists.oasis-open.org > Subject: Re: [regrep-semantic] [UDEF] > > > John, > > Actually not! GUID and URI have no enforced structure and meaning > in a semantic way. There's an exact way to construct a UDEF code > based on the domain model - you just cannot pick what you think > might be OK to use for the code. > > DW. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Gillerman" <john.gillerman@sisconet.com> > To: <regrep-semantic@lists.oasis-open.org> > Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 10:01 AM > Subject: RE: [regrep-semantic] [UDEF] > > >> URI's (with namespaces) or GUID's. Neither tries to enforce a tree. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Chiusano Joseph [mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com] >> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 9:33 AM >> To: carlmattocks@checkmi.com >> Cc: John Gillerman; regrep-semantic@lists.oasis-open.org >> Subject: Re: [regrep-semantic] [UDEF] >> >> >> Can anyone please tell me if they are aware of a UDEF "equivalent" (or >> rough equivalent) anywhere? IOW, what would UDEF "compete" with? >> >> Thanks, >> Joe >> >> Carl Mattocks wrote: >> > >> > Given the ebXMLRegistry can store all types of relationships - I think > we >> > should have a more formal discussion on lattice support. Particulary, >> > since the UDEF structure is a 'community-of-interest specific >> taxonomy' > . >> > >> > Zach: >> > Please create a 'Use Case' for UDEF taxonomy support. >> > >> > <quote who="John Gillerman"> >> > > I very much agree with Evan's analysis. It is very hard to express >> an >> > > ontology with single tree that let along one that doesn't have typed >> > > relationships. It becomes even more difficult when one tries to >> take >> the >> > > tree cross industry and international. >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: ewallace@cme.nist.gov [mailto:ewallace@cme.nist.gov] >> > > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 5:59 PM >> > > To: carlmattocks@checkmi.com >> > > Cc: regrep-semantic@lists.oasis-open.org >> > > Subject: Re: [regrep-semantic] [UDEF] >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > "Carl Mattocks" <carlmattocks@checkmi.com> wrote: >> > > >> > >>This is interesting. I want to now more.. >> > >> >> > >>Zach: >> > >> >> > >>Please expand on the notion of 'UDEF semantic identifiers'. >> > >> >> > >>Evan: >> > >> >> > >>Please elaborate on 'lattices of these relationships '. >> > >> >> > > >> > > I meant networks rather than strict trees. A simple example network >> > > is a class with multiple inheritance. >> > > >> > > There are also horizontal relationships like >> > > synonyms and properties. Think about a design model of a racecar > which >> > > describes different component systems. All of these components have >> > > a partOf relation to the car. Something like a transmission often >> > > plays at least two different roles in a hierarchy of component >> systems >> > > in a racecar. It is partOf the drivetrain and may be partOf the >> load >> > > bearing structural system. Twisting all these properties and >> > > relationships into a strict hierarchy leads to awkward models such >> as >> > > the UDEF Object tree. >> > > >> > > I didn't mean to imply that supporting lattices was unusual for > modeling >> > > languages. It isn't. I was arguing that such expressiveness is >> necessary >> > > for useful semantic models. >> > > >> > >>Everyone : >> > >> >> > >>Please consider if the Semantic Web could leverage "concepts ... > denoted >> > >>by the paths from these nodes to the root rather than the node >> itself" >> > > >> > > To a certain extent they already do. I was trying to simplify a >> finer >> > > distinction. The path back to the root through subtype relations in > an >> > > RDFS or OWL model of course has implications on a class and >> instances >> > > (individuals) of that class. Just the implications you would expect > if >> > > you have programmed in an Object Orient programming language. If >> > > Racecar is a subtypeOf Car is a subtypeOf Vehicle, then any Racecar >> > > instance is also a Car and a Vehicle instance and inherits the >> > > characteristics of those supertypes. >> > > >> > > By constrast, the relations in the UDEF Object tree do not have any >> > > explicitly defined implications. It's only when you have followed >> the >> > > path that you might be able to infer what the relations might have > been >> > > along each connection in the path. This makes the tree hard to > navigate >> > > when looking for a specific concept. It also can lead to related or >> > > similar concepts being located quite far apart in the tree. >> > > >> > > -Evan >> > > >> > > >> > >> > -- >> > Carl Mattocks >> > >> > co-Chair OASIS ebXMLRegistry Semantic Content SC >> > CEO CHECKMi >> > v/f (usa) 908 322 8715 >> > www.CHECKMi.com >> > Semantically Smart Compendiums >> > (AOL) IM CarlCHECKMi >> >> > > > -- Carl Mattocks co-Chair OASIS ebXMLRegistry Semantic Content SC CEO CHECKMi v/f (usa) 908 322 8715 www.CHECKMi.com Semantically Smart Compendiums (AOL) IM CarlCHECKMi
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