[Fwd: RE: [sca-j] testing architecture]

[Anish Karmarkar <Anish.Karmarkar@oracle.com>]

Forwarding per Jacques' request. He is not a member of SCA-J and cannot 
post to this list.

-Anish
--

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: [sca-j] testing architecture
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 18:13:18 -0800
From: Durand, Jacques R. <JDurand@us.fujitsu.com>
To: Anish Karmarkar <Anish.Karmarkar@oracle.com>,        OASIS Java 
<sca-j@lists.oasis-open.org>
References: 
<OF4390713D.430E4D13-ON85257501.00463C7F-85257501.0046D95C@us.ibm.com> 
<49276ABD.5040906@oracle.com> 
<OFC0A22A74.BBA99BD8-ON8525750B.004A895F-8525750B.004C052C@us.ibm.com> 
<492B345E.3000003@oracle.com>

Anish:

Yes I'm listening :-)
And indeed some legal issue still keeps me from full SCA membership,
but I am willing to help on the testing. The XSLT-based analyzer
technology we developed for WS-I can certainly be a good starting point,
as far as I can tell, to derive something suitable for SCA.

On the TA methodology side, worth noting: the Test Assertions Guidelines
(TAG) OASIS TC that I am chairing is almost done with its guideline doc:
first CD can be seen at:
http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/tag/document.php?document_i
d=30070
Not surprisingly, the TA methodology and model of this guideline is
already applied by WS-I successfully ;-). I drafted a 2-page digest of
this guideline, which is visible on the Tech Advisory Board (TAB) wiki
(proposal in progress - no OASIS / TAB commitment!)
http://wiki.oasis-open.org/tab/TestabilityGuide

I am saying this because the ambition of some of us is to provide an
XSLT-based analyzer technology for this more general TA mark-up.

So my advice is to indeed (1) to reuse the TA model mentioned above, and
(2) adopt Xpath2 (preferably not XPath1) for scripting some parts of the
TA (target, co-target if any, prerequisite if any, predicate).
Of course, prior to scripting Tas you will have to define an xml markup
for the material under test to be used as Analyzer input (combining
metadata like bindings, and message capture). Ther Analyzer technology
itself is independent from your specific mark-ups.

I could explain more over an informal conf call after ThxGiving.

Jacques



-----Original Message-----
From: Anish Karmarkar [mailto:Anish.Karmarkar@oracle.com]
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 3:10 PM
To: OASIS Java
Cc: Durand, Jacques R.
Subject: Re: [sca-j] testing architecture

Thanks for the clarification.

+1 to creating architecture to cover all the TCs.

Thinking more on this, I'm not sure in which situations we would
necessarily need two runtimes. Initially, I was thinking of testing
references which have absolute URIs of services, but I think this can
still be managed without two runtimes (as long as the URLs where the
services are deployed can be determined apriori). I'm sure you have
thought of cases where we would necessarily require two runtimes for
testing. Would appreciate if you can elaborate on that.

One more thing we might want to think about is binding testing. This
would require capturing messages on the wire and analyzing them. This is
very similar to what WS-I has done. They defined a log format, where
messages get logged and wrote an analyzer to correlate and validate the
messages with the metadata (in WS-I's case WSDL). We might want to do
something similar. Not sure if Jacques Durand from Fujitsu (cc'ed) is a
member of sca-j or is listening, but he was/is heavily involved in
writing a XSLT based analyzer to validate messages on the wire in WS-I
and may have some opinions on this.

-Anish
--

David Booz wrote:
> I'll try to clarify the "two runtime" question. In my charts, the two 
> runtimes are meant to be from the same vendor. The last bullet on the 
> first slide was supposed to make this clear.
> 
>  From the whiteboard pic, the two runtimes are indeed from different 
> vendors but runtime 2 was added to the board as part of a different 
> discussion not addressed by the slides. That larger discussion was 
> about what constitutes a compliant runtime, which bindings needed to 
> be supported, etc. We didn't come to any conclusions on this 
> discussion, thus I did not include it in the slides.
> 
> We certainly don't need two runtimes (even from the same vendor) for 
> all the tests, but we need it for some of the tests. The architecture 
> was intended to cover all the TCs. See the 3rd bullet on the 1st 
> slide. I really don't want 6 testing architectures. I want the TCs to 
> collaborate and share as much as possible. We need to position 
> ourselves to take advantage of economies of scale.
> 
> I hope that clarifies.
> 
> Dave Booz
> STSM, BPM and SCA Architecture
> Co-Chair OASIS SCA-Policy TC and SCA-J TC "Distributed objects first, 
> then world hunger"
> Poughkeepsie, NY (845)-435-6093 or 8-295-6093 e-mail:booz@us.ibm.com
> 
> Inactive hide details for Anish Karmarkar ---11/21/2008 09:20:10 
> PM---Dave, Thanks for sending this out.Anish Karmarkar ---11/21/2008 
> 09:20:10 PM---Dave, Thanks for sending this out.
> 
> 
> From:	
> Anish Karmarkar <Anish.Karmarkar@oracle.com>
> 
> To:	
> sca-j@lists.oasis-open.org
> 
> Date:	
> 11/21/2008 09:20 PM
> 
> Subject:	
> Re: [sca-j] testing architecture
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> 
> 
> 
> Dave,
> 
> Thanks for sending this out.
> I certainly agree with the 1st slide.
> On the 2nd slide (as well as in the whiteboard picture), it shows two 
> runtimes (in the whiteboard picture, it shows two runtimes from two 
> different vendors). Since I wasn't present for the testing discussion,

> I may not be interpreting this correctly, but why do we necessarily 
> need two runtimes for testing?
> 
> To pass our exit criteria [1], we need to have at least two 
> independent implementations. But I don't see that we necessarily need 
> to have two runtimes for all of our tests.
> 
> For example, a very simple test would be an echo/ping consisting of 
> two Java components (with PBV and deployed locally) A and B with B's 
> ref connected to A's service. The logic of B could consist of invoking

> A's service and println-ing the return value into some stream that 
> could be directed to stdio/file.
> 
> For binding test, it can get tricky because we have to capture 
> messages on the wire and ensure that it did the Right Thing, and every

> implementation may not provide access to the messages, possibly 
> requiring two runtimes. But for non-binding tests we don't need that.
> Furthermore, even for binding tests, we *may* be able to get away with

> a single implementation by using utilities like tcpmon and setting the

> URLs to facilitate redirecting/forwarding.
> 
> I hope I haven't completely misinterpreted the slides.
> 
> -Anish
> --
> 
> [1] http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/sca-j/charter.php
> 
> 
> David Booz wrote:
>  > Ashok asked me to recap my testing thoughts and the picture, and 
> put  > them onto some slides. Some of these thoughts come from Mike E 
> also, so  > I don't want mis-represent where they are coming from. I'm

> happy to add  > more material (there's only two slides here) as we 
> progress with the  > discussion and clarify the ideas. The last slide 
> in this deck is meant  > to be equivalent to the white board picture 
> that Mark C captured in a  > photo and sent to the list.
>  >
>  > /(See attached file: testing-design.ppt)/  >  >  > Dave Booz  > 
> STSM, BPM and SCA Architecture  > Co-Chair OASIS SCA-Policy TC and 
> SCA-J TC  > "Distributed objects first, then world hunger"
>  > Poughkeepsie, NY (845)-435-6093 or 8-295-6093  > 
> e-mail:booz@us.ibm.com  >  >  > 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>  >
>  > 
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