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Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Groups - Rough notes taken during the last ebSOA meeting.(ebSOA-Elements.pdf) uploaded

create, transport, receive, save and archive don't strike me as being  
words that convey "abstract" very well, wouldn't you agree?

Is the input and/or output of every consumption of a service  
necessarily a "message"?

On 10-Apr-05, at 12:10 PM, Ken Laskey wrote:

> I have not yet gone through the rest of this thread (and several  
> others) but it seems that while the message itself is not part of the  
> RM, the ability to create, transport, receive, and possibly  
> save/archive the message is part of the RM.  Can we conceive of an SOA  
> without messages?  Consider the message exchange patterns (MEPs) that  
> are part of WSDL 2.0 for the types of message patterns people imagine.  
>  Do we think these are accurate?  How does the RM acknowledge these?
> Ken
> On Mar 30, 2005, at 7:32 PM, Duane Nickull wrote:
>> Hi Rebekah:
>> Some comments inline:
>> Metz Rebekah wrote:
>>> All -
>>> I have another 25 messages to go before I catch up with all the  
>>> traffic
>>> on the list, so I apologize if my comments are already outdated.
>> I would recommend reading Thomas's elegant summary - it may save you  
>> some time ;-)
>>> Respecting the service description, contract, and data model from
>>> Duane's message - does you think that "all aspects of the service"
>>> encompasses the service interface and the policy?  I like the use of  
>>> the
>>> term service contract, but have seen several interpretations of the  
>>> term
>>> ranging from semantics ("what is meant") to syntax (vis a vis the  
>>> WSDL)
>>> and also that the WSDL is the data model is the contract.  I would  
>>> argue
>>> that the contract is the same as the data model.  However, I'd have  
>>> to
>>> think a bit more to provide a convincing argument rather than simply
>>> positing an idea.
>> The data model is the abstract concept of what data you will pass in  
>> and out of a service.  An open ended question is "does the data model  
>> include the notion of semantics?".  I would like to hear comments  
>> back on this matter.
>>> Continuing into the message, I would disagree with the following:
>>>> If I build something and that is "Service Oriented"  
>>>> architecturally, does it have to have a "message"?  No - the  
>>>> service itself has a mechanism that allows a service consumer to  
>>>> bind to it to invoke the service but it doesn't actually have to be  
>>>> invoked for it to be "service oriented architecture".
>>> I would argue that conceptually, a message exists.  <SNIP>
>> Try to think abstract.  If you think concrete - then the answer is  
>> yes, however the reference model is not concrete.  No other reference  
>> models use messages by convention either.  If you find one that is  
>> well scrutinized and accepted by peers, please let me know.
>>> The mechanism by
>>> which the consumer binds to the service and invokes it constitutes  
>>> the
>>> message.
>> Conceptually - yes.  The "service" element of the SOA RM draft on the  
>> position paper includes the concept of a binding.  A physical message  
>> does not have to be sent.  When using the RM to write a concrete SO  
>> infrastructure architecture, one would recognize that a message  
>> protocol would likely be needed to be specified, along with several  
>> other items like security, potentially some sort of state management  
>> (like BPM), etc etc.
>> I hope this helps a bit.
>> Duane
>> -- ***********
>> Senior Standards Strategist - Adobe Systems, Inc. -  
>> http://www.adobe.com
>> Vice Chair - UN/CEFACT Bureau Plenary - http://www.unece.org/cefact/
>> Adobe Enterprise Developer Resources  -  
>> http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/developer/main.html
>> ***********
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> -------------------
> Ken Laskey
> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305     phone:  703-883-7934
> 7515 Colshire Drive                        fax:        703-883-1379
> McLean VA 22102-7508

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