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Subject: Re: [ubl-dev] Basic Invoice Exploration
OK, I went and grabbed a utility bill (phone bill) It has totals at the end of the invoice as follows: Prices in GBP Cost of calls 68.16 Your benefits - 5.60 Rental charges 99.53 One-off charges 23.41 VAT 32.47 If it had an early payment discount and/or late payment charge, that would follow the VAT (as it is not included unless the payment is late or early so it cannot affect the VAT calculation). Now I had assumed that the one total here which seems to be called 'line extension total' is 'Cost of calls'. I think it is the same total which gets called 'Nett total' on many UK invoices. When I look at a couple of invoices from a hotel in Germany I see that the total first mentioned is one which includes tax (on one invoice it says it includes tax and on the other it just says 'Total' but it clearly includes tax). Then it says how much the tax is. Now this worries me because there is clearly the possibility that UK invoices usually put first the total without tax (which I think is called 'Nett total'), followed by charges/allowances and then tax and finally what is called the 'gross total' which is the payable total before variable allowances/charges. This makes it possible that there are locality- dependent interpretations possible for the one total which has most possibility of confusion - line extension. Regarding 'Nett' and 'Net'; a search for examples from UK on internet shows that Net Total in UK means without tax e.g. random example (but others are like it) http://www.nominet.org.uk/registrars/fees/emailinvoice/ (apologies to Nominet) Another example shows this all the more clearly http://forums.contractoruk.com/accounting-legal/27004-nett-vat-breakdown-expenditure.html So it may be that in UK 'Net' (or 'Nett') means 'net of all non-tax amounts - i.e. combining all line totals but before any deductions/charges and taxes - and that this word has gotten into the definition in UBL with such UK overloading unaware of the meaning calling it 'net of tax' will give to it outside of the UK. I guess in the UK, because the pre-tax total is called Net Total or Nett Total (I think they may have a subtle distinction Net vs Nett), the words 'net of tax' might mean 'net - i.e. before tax' whereas in countries without the common use of the term 'net total' the words would be taken more literally to mean 'inclusive of tax'. Trouble is that so much of the modern VAT calculation model comes from the UK (I believe they even took the VAT system to ISO via BSI). Plus Mike Adcock was from UK, as were Sue Probert and myself who put know-how into UBL tax model. Then UK Gov provided input too, albeit via EU Gov for UBL 2. I guess the (perhaps presumptuous) assumption was that even EU VAT would follow very much the UK pattern (although now it seems one single EU VAT is less likely than we thought a few years ago). So I would still tend to see LineExtensionAmount (whatever that means - no idea where it came from) as exclusive of VAT especially since we have another total for inclusive of VAT, don't we. What does NES say? BII? Best Stephen D Green 2009/6/22 Stephen Green <stephengreenubl@gmail.com>: > Interesting one about the meaning of 'net'. > In the same context, in the UK at least it is generally > accepted practice to call the pre-tax (pre-VAT) total > 'nett' and the tax-inclusive, final total 'gross'. I don't > know whether some confusion has resulted from that. > > I only have experience with paper invoices and XML > ones (not EDI) and I hadn't come across the term > 'line extension' before joining the UBL TC. To us UK > paper invoice people there are two main totals on > the invoice - nett total and gross total with amounts > for total tax (split by tax type and, for VAT, tax rate) > and total discount/charges before VAT and total > for discount/charges after. The total of discounts and > charges taken after the VAT calculation is usually > a varying one, hence it does not get included in the > VAT which must be fixed and cannot be changed > without cancelling and reissuing the invoice - in UK > that is where VAT is sometimes claimed back by > the payer and therefore has to be the same when > claimed back as it is when paid by the supplier. > I don't quite remember all that well but I think the > nett total is one which includes any pre-VAT discounts > and charges so that it is easy to check the VAT > calculation (and ask for a replacement invoice if it is > incorrect - or a correctional credit note or whatever > if the invoice was already paid). > > So I too would be interested to know whether line > extension amount includes VAT, having always assumed > that it didn't. What did the UBL invoice examples say? > I wrote some of the examples for UBL 2 but the UBL 1 > ones were already pretty much written before I came > along. As were the terms like line extension amount. > > Best > > Steve > > Stephen D Green > > > > 2009/6/22 G. Ken Holman <gkholman@cranesoftwrights.com>: >> Forgive me, Steve, for drawing this out but I've got my UBL Human Interface >> Subcommittee (HISC) hat on today. >> >> Since April 2006 in the HISC we've been talking about documenting sample >> calculation models for UBL: >> >> http://markmail.org/message/7yzrxwp7ttwleyn6 >> >> I'm finally talking with a chartered accountant in Canada regarding a >> calculation model for invoices in Ontario Canada (our provincial >> jurisdiction). It would be an HISC example of a model where VAT is not >> included in prices. >> >> The Danish have documented a calculation model where VAT is included in >> prices: >> >> http://www.oioubl.info/guidelines/en/OIOUBL_GUIDE_TOTALS.pdf >> >> I would like to transcribe the essentials of that into an HISC document of >> an example model where VAT is included in prices. >> >> Your comments to jaymuz would be helpful to consider when writing this. >> >> Where I'll get the time I don't know, but for three years now we haven't had >> any volunteers join up in HISC and write these up. >> >> At 2009-06-18 11:58 +0100, Stephen Green wrote: >>> >>> My knowledge is a bit rusty (I've been out of finance work >>> for a year or so now) but I think the LineExtensionAmount >>> is the amount without VAT. >> >> LineExtensionAmount is in the InvoiceLine ... so even if the sticker price >> includes VAT, the InvoiceLine LineExtensionAmount is still the price without >> VAT? >> >> LineExtensionAmount is also in the MonetaryTotal ... where it states it is >> the total of line extension amounts net of tax. Being a programmer and not >> a businessman, I looked up the term "net of tax" and found: >> >> http://www.answers.com/topic/net-of-tax >> >> Which implies to me that "net of tax" *includes* all tax. >> >> Taken together would imply a contradiction to me that LineExtensionAmount in >> the InvoiceLine is without tax yet LineExtensionAmount in the MonetaryTotal >> is with tax. >> >> Where is a layman like me getting confused? >> >>> The VAT is calculated (in my >>> country at least - UK) on the total including allowances >>> and charges (except those made dependant on payment >>> terms like charges for late payment which do not affect >>> the VAT calculation). >> >> Is the VAT then calculated on the individual invoice lines and the total >> included in the monetary total? >> >>> Also in UK I think it is still true that >>> the VAT cannot be altered once it is declared on an >>> invoice so there are some things the LineExtensionAmount >>> has to include and some things it doesn't. Anyway, AFAIK, >>> it is the basis for VAT calculation so it doesn't itself >>> include the VAT. >> >> Which LineExtensionAmount? Both? >> >>> All this is general accounting knowledge >> >> (by those who know accounting) >> >>> so doesn't get dicated by the language (UBL in this case) >>> and does have to comply with whatever VAT rules apply >>> to your invoice. I do accept that concepts like LineExtension >>> have been floded into UBL and need a UBL explanation for >>> what they entail - which I guess is at present just in the >>> official UBL semantic definition (a bit sparce - could maybe >>> be extended to include a general conceptual calculation >>> model, albeit one which might have to be a default which >>> gets overridden by local customs and rules). >> >> Hopefully with HISC publishing a couple of examples, then users in different >> jurisdictions will identify what has to be identified where they are. >> >> Thanks, Steve, for all your input! >> >> . . . . . . . . . Ken >> >> -- >> Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/u/ >> Training tools: Comprehensive interactive XSLT/XPath 1.0/2.0 video >> Video lesson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrNjJCh7Ppg&fmt=18 >> Video overview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTiodiij6gE&fmt=18 >> G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com >> Male Cancer Awareness Nov'07 http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/u/bc >> Legal business disclaimers: http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/legal >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ubl-dev-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: ubl-dev-help@lists.oasis-open.org >> >> >
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