Re: [ubl-lcsc] Re: Position Paper on List Containers

[Tim McGrath <tmcgrath@portcomm.com.au>]

once again, you highlight the counter arguments well.  somehow i keep coming
back to 'if in doubt, do nothing' idea.  it seems a long path to little gain.

glad you will be on hand tuesday to provide the balanced view and stop me
making more outrageous claims ;-)

Anthony B. Coates wrote:
> ** Reply to message from Tim McGrath <tmcgrath@portcomm.com.au> on Sat, 30 Aug
> 2003 13:53:11 +0800
>
> > a point i could add 
> > when using selective list containers is that we also create a problem 
> > where implementators cannot immediately identify which structures have 
> > list containers and which don't, e.g. "does BasePrice have a list?" or 
> > worse still "does BasePrice have a list within Invoice?"
> >   
>
> Well, this problem exists either way.  Even without the "do I use a list"
> question, you have the "how many of these can I have" question.  As usual, this
> is only a problem when using Notepad or vi.  There are enough XML editors
> around with "pop-up" prompting of allowable elements for the current cursor
> position.  In many cases, developers will just set up their template once and
> then work from that.
>
> > Finally, i note with interest your comment about 'annotations' and urge 
> > you to bring these to the attention of the NDR group( if you have not 
> > already).
> >   
>
> This is something I only realised from reading your document, so I have not had
> a chance to mention it to NDR.  I would be interesting to mention it during the
> joint meeting (note I will only be there for Tuesday, as I have MDDL meetings
> on Wednesday).
>
> > They are currently debating which flavour of annotation 
> > (documentation or appinfo) we should use.  you are are suggested both 
> > are irrelevant ! or is that just for 'reference' (which i confess to not 
> > understanding)
> >   
>
> Just for "reference".  To explain what I mean by that, in an XML Schema, when
> you define a global element, you use <element name="..." ...>...</element>. 
> You can have an annotation inside this, describing the element from a global
> perspective.  If it is a <Tax> element, you might describe something about tax.
> When you want to use your global element definition somewhere, you write
> <element ref="..." ...>...</element>.  Usually there is nothing between the
> open and closing tags, but according to the XML Schema spec, you can also have
> an annotation here.  This is the "reference" case I was talking about.  It
> allows you to annotate an occurrence of <Tax> inside <Federal> differently to
> an occurrence of <Tax> inside <State>.  My point was that annotation of
> references is not widely used, and not well supported by tools (some of which
> normalise those annotations back to the <element name=...> definition,
> unhelpfully).
>
> > We have stated the the schema is the only normative 
> > form of UBL and so I dont see how we can avoid this information being in 
> > there.  But seriously, are we going to be guided by TurboXML? i know 
> > that sounds fatuous but in the history of design we sometimes have to 
> > take a lead.
> >   
>
> Well, seriously, I find it hard to believe that UBL is afraid to use Schema
> appinfo, but that is what has happened.  The fact that UBL Schemas will be
> altered significantly if opened and saved by a popular XML Schema editor is, to
> my mind, a far greater and more real concern.  I'm not opposed to UBL taking a
> leadership position, but not arbitrarily.  I can't see why UBL would be brave
> on this and cowardly on appinfo.
>
> > Regardless of that issue, the point of concern here is not our 
> > "difficulty of making annotations relevant to all usages when they are 
> > attached to a global definition" - it is that each usage needs its own 
> > global definition.  rather like your comment about AddressLine0-7List 
> > and AddressLine1-3List,  my point is that we need different list 
> > defintions for each usage (i.e. AllowanceChargeTaxCategoryList is not 
> > the same as ItemTaxCategoryList).
> >   
>
> This doesn't suggest any kind of problem with lists, though, it simply points
> out that one of the naming rules has the wrong effect when applied to lists,
> and needs to be changed.  It would be wrong to abandon lists purely because the
> naming rules have an unexpectedly perverse effect.
>
> 	Cheers,
> 		Tony.
> ====
> Anthony B. Coates
> London Market Systems Limited
> 33 Throgmorton Street, London, EC2N 2BR 
> http://www.londonmarketsystems.com/
> mailto:abcoates@londonmarketsystems.com
> Mobile/Cell: +44 (79) 0543 9026
> [MDDL Editor (Market Data Definition Language), http://www.mddl.org/]
> [FpML Arch WG Member (Financial Products Markup Language), http://www.fpml.org/]
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-- 
regards
tim mcgrath
phone: +618 93352228  
postal: po box 1289   fremantle    western australia 6160