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Subject: Re: [ws-tx] optional features means optional tests?


Since we didn't get a chance to discuss this on the phone yesterday,  
but we did discuss timeframes for WS-BA interop, I think this  
particular issue is extremely pertinent now. If we can't reach a  
conclusion via discussion, how about just having an electronic ballot?

Mark.



On 21 Sep 2006, at 15:28, Mark Little wrote:

> I meant the original issue: optional features mean optional tests.  
> What happened in the past may be a precedent for the TC to  
> consider, but if not then the optional features in WS-BA need to be  
> considered for OPTIONAL tests IMO.
>
> Mark.
>
>
> On 20 Sep 2006, at 19:47, Ian Robinson wrote:
>
>> Per the resolution to i047: "A coordination service that supports an
>> Activation service MUST support the Completion protocol." The  
>> Activation
>> service has always been optional.
>>
>> This is, of course, a spec statement. From an AT interop  
>> perspective, the
>> majority of the tests focussed on the madatory 2PC protocol but  
>> there are 2
>> scenarion that include the Activation and Completion protocols.  
>> For AT, I
>> don't believe we categorized interop scenarios as "optional" or not.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ian
>>
>>
>>
>>              Mark Little
>>              <mark.little@jbos
>>               
>> s.com>                                                     To
>>                                        ws-tx@lists.oasis-open.org
>>              20/09/2006  
>> 17:51                                           cc
>>
>>                                                                     
>> Subject
>>                                        Re: [ws-tx] optional  
>> features means
>>                                        optional tests?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't believe we came to any agreement on this as a TC. As we
>> approach BA interop I'd at least like to know what is and is not
>> required/mandated. Any chance we can discuss this on the next call?
>>
>> Mark.
>>
>>
>> On 6 Sep 2006, at 13:42, Mark Little wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 6 Sep 2006, at 11:51, Alastair Green wrote:
>>>
>>>> Completion protocol is not mandatory under any circumstances.
>>>> Activation Service is not mandatory under any circumstances.
>>>
>>>
>>> The change from mandatory to optional occurred during that interop.
>>> phase. If it had been earlier, then I would be arguing for the same
>>> point there.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> In my view, to repeat, the point of these interop tests is to
>>>> prove (very roughly) -- better, to give some confidence -- that
>>>> the words in the spec are capable of being rendered into
>>>> interoperable software.
>>>
>>> But that should not mean that the tests themselves are mandatory.
>>> The distinction between optional and mandatory elements in a
>>> specification and how they are handled by optional and mandatory
>>> tests in used well in W3C. Are you suggesting that those
>>> specifications/standards are not interoperable?
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Besides, how hard is it to do this? Support for mixed outcome at a
>>>> wire level is trivial.
>>>
>>> Fine, but it shouldn't make the interop. tests mandatory. All that
>>> does is make it easier for those companies who wish to participate
>>> in those tests to do so.
>>>
>>> What I want is for us to agree that optional features are covered
>>> by optional tests. Then we can have a discussion about how many
>>> companies we should ideally have to cover optional features in
>>> order to give us a degree of confidence. I refer back to the W3C
>>> approach.
>>>
>>> Mark.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alastair
>>>>
>>>> Mark Little wrote:
>>>>> We need to describe the tests for all features if we want to show
>>>>> interoperability for those features. However, and the specific
>>>>> case I have in mind is mixed outcome, which is not mandatory
>>>>> under any circumstances, it shouldn't be a requirement for anyone
>>>>> in the TC to test against because then it's effectively a
>>>>> mandatory implementation (at least as far as the TC work is
>>>>> concerned). It does not make sense to have optional features
>>>>> covered by mandatory tests. Likewise, it does not make sense to
>>>>> have optional features that aren't tested by at least 2 different
>>>>> implementations, but that's a separate issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5 Sep 2006, at 14:41, Alastair Green wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Unlike in WS-AT, where optional Completion protocol was a
>>>>>> mandatory interop test. :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not sure of final outcome from F2F, but this point was
>>>>>> discussed, and it was pointed out that in AT this approach was
>>>>>> not taken.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my view the point of interop tests is not conformance, but to
>>>>>> prove that the specs are workable -- a task which applies to all
>>>>>> parts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yrs,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alastair
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark Little wrote:
>>>>>>> I'm assuming that any optional features in the specification
>>>>>>> that are covered by tests in the interoperability scenarios
>>>>>>> inherently means that those tests are also optional? Certainly
>>>>>>> in W3C interoperability testing, only mandatory features have
>>>>>>> to be tested.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mark.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>


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