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Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [wsbpel] abstract process strawman]


Hi Danny,

Thanks for your doc.

Regarding conformance, we make it very clear that there are many 
different possible conformance relations that may define them in a 
paraallel effort as you suggest - but if we have a good way to define a 
useful one that covers important cases, I think it's useful to have the 
definition there. If you look at the bottom of the doc you can see that 
one of the issues was whether to allow one to relate two processes 
together given a defined relation. This would be too early I think for 
this version but it shows the direction of the thinking.

The def is not supposed to yield an algorithm directly, but to clearly 
and intuitively explain what this compliance def is checking for. The 
algorithm one may use to check "observable compliance" should not a 
brute force one from the def, and that's quite obvious to tell (you 
could have infinitely many minimum-no-fault-...-completions). Also, the 
definition is still being clarified.

Also, the doc is clear that it allows many uses for abstract processes.

Regarding partially defined processes as you describe them, my view is 
like I explained at the F2F - which is pretty much what Satish's e-mail 
says.  I'm strongly against this because it hurts the usefulness of 
abstract processes.

regards,
Rania

Danny van der Rijn wrote:
> that is very close to the conclusion that i came to as well.  except 
> that i would prefer that different communities be able to define their 
> own standard outside of the core spec.  with conformance being one of 
> those communities.  i just don't get why conformance has special 
> standing, especially given its infancy.
> 
> Satish Thatte wrote:
> 
>> What I heard before is that your customers want to omit anything ? 
>> which is almost like an editor?s intermediate storage representation. 
>>  We don?t need to standardize that because it doesn?t need to have any 
>> semantics beyond editing.
>>
>>  
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> From: Danny van der Rijn [mailto:dannyv@tibco.com]
>> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 12:19 PM
>> To: Satish Thatte
>> Cc: wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
>> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [wsbpel] abstract process strawman]
>>
>>  
>>
>> that's what we're doing right now, isn't it?
>>
>> Satish Thatte wrote:
>>
>>So then please describe what you have in mind so we can see the precise
>>
>>differences.
>>
>> 
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>
>>From: Danny van der Rijn [mailto:dannyv@tibco.com] 
>>
>>Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 8:44 AM
>>
>>To: Satish Thatte; wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org <mailto:wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org>
>>
>>Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [wsbpel] abstract process strawman]
>>
>> 
>>
>>btw, the templating that was in the paper didn't really match the 
>>
>>templating that i'm describing which is why i called it out.
>>
>> 
>>
>>Danny van der Rijn wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>  
>>
>>>i was hoping that i misunderstood the intent.  i bothered to be so 
>>>
>>>detailed so someone could point out the error in my misunderstanding.
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>as far as a list of features, no i don't have one.  they are just 
>>>
>>>omitting what they please and providing what they find to be usefully 
>>>
>>>portable.  but a concrete example of that that i do know is that they 
>>>
>>>are leaving out specifics of the WSDLs.  "you receive an order here, 
>>>
>>>and you send a confirmation response."  that's all that you need to 
>>>
>>>know at that point.  not what a line item looks like.  not even what 
>>>
>>>an order looks like.
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>Satish Thatte wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>    
>>>
>>>>Danny,
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>I think your description of the challenge response metaphor for 
>>>>
>>>>proving conformance represents a misunderstanding of the intent 
>>>>
>>>>(brute force search among lots of randomly generated possibilities 
>>>>
>>>>was not the idea).  Moreover, the templating case is explicitly 
>>>>
>>>>supported in Rania's paper I believe.  Rania and I will address that 
>>>>
>>>>separately.
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>But I am very curious about the specific details your customers would
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>> 
>>
>>  
>>
>>>>want to omit while still preserving the meaningfulness of the 
>>>>
>>>>"process IP" they would be selling.  Do you have a list of features 
>>>>
>>>>that ought to be allowed for omission?
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>Satish
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>________________________________
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>From: Danny van der Rijn [mailto:dannyv@tibco.com]
>>>>
>>>>Sent: Thu 9/23/2004 8:57 PM
>>>>
>>>>To: rkhalaf@watson.ibm.com <mailto:rkhalaf@watson.ibm.com>; wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org <mailto:wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org>; 
>>>>
>>>>wsbpel-abstract@lists.oasis-open.org <mailto:wsbpel-abstract@lists.oasis-open.org>
>>>>
>>>>Subject: [Fwd: Re: [wsbpel] abstract process strawman]
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>you don't see that every day.  i remembered the attachment, but 
>>>>
>>>>forgot the inline text.
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>the enclosed document is my quick reaction to the abstract 
>>>>
>>>>presentation from yesterday.
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>-------- Original Message -------- Subject:     Re: [wsbpel] abstract
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>> 
>>
>>  
>>
>>>>process strawman   
>>>>
>>>>Date:     Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:52:21 -0700   
>>>>
>>>>From:     Danny van der Rijn <dannyv@tibco.com> <mailto:dannyv@tibco.com> 
>>>>
>>>><mailto:dannyv@tibco.com>    
>>>>
>>>>To:     rkhalaf@watson.ibm.com <mailto:rkhalaf@watson.ibm.com>   
>>>>
>>>>CC:     wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org <mailto:wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org>, 
>>>>
>>>>wsbpel-abstract@lists.oasis-open.org <mailto:wsbpel-abstract@lists.oasis-open.org>   
>>>>
>>>>References:     <41507291.3010200@watson.ibm.com> <41507291.3010200@watson.ibm.com">mailto:41507291.3010200@watson.ibm.com> 
>>>>
>>>><41507291.3010200@watson.ibm.com">mailto:41507291.3010200@watson.ibm.com>    
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>rkhalaf wrote:
>>>>
>>>>    Hi everyone,     
>>>>
>>>>    As promised, here is the abstract process strawman document I 
>>>>
>>>>have been putting together. This work aspired to define a consistent 
>>>>
>>>>view of abstract processes  and their use as the basis for continuted
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>> 
>>
>>  
>>
>>>>discussion and concrete proposals/resolutions.     
>>>>
>>>>    According to the Agenda, tomorrow or Thursday will be when the 
>>>>
>>>>abstract proc stuff will be discussed.     
>>>>
>>>>    Regards,     Rania     
>>>>
>>>>    
>>>>
>>>>    
>>>>
>>>>________________________________
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>    To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from the 
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/wsbpel/members/leave_workgr
>>
>>oup.php. 
>>
>>  
>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from the roster
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>> 
>>
>>  
>>
>>>>of the OASIS TC), go to 
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/wsbpel/members/leave_workgr
>>
>>oup.php. 
>>
>>  
>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>    
>>>
>> 
>>
>>To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from the roster of the OASIS TC), go to http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/wsbpel/members/leave_workgroup.php.
>>
>> 
>>
>> 
>>
>>  
>>
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from the roster of 
> the OASIS TC), go to 
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