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Subject: RE: [wsrp-coord] Should we design in support for out-of band events?
- From: Rich Thompson <richt2@us.ibm.com>
- To: wsrp-coord@lists.oasis-open.org
- Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:03:31 -0400
This discussion has strayed a long ways
from the original question. The question is not about defining OOB events
between WSRP actors ... I think that by definition they are out-of-band
and therefore we can not define them. We may want (at some future point)
to consider whether or not to define communication between the Consumer
and Producer outside of the user-interaction cycle, but that is also not
the question raised.The question is about how do OOB events that WSRP actors
receive impact the defined protocol between the actors.
I think the most common case (#1 below)
is one where the portlet (or the application it is a front for ... the
protocol does not distinguish between these) receives information from
an outside source (e.g. a stock quote portlet receives updated trade information).
I think this is the most trivial case and is likely just a matter of including
any related coordination information in the next interaction cycle, but
I do think that we should keep such scenarios in mind as we design WSRP
coordination.
Rich Thompson
| Andre Kramer <andre.kramer@eu.citrix.com>
08/06/2003 04:27 AM
|
To:
wsrp-coord@lists.oasis-open.org
cc:
Subject:
RE: [wsrp-coord] Should we design in
support for out-of band even ts? |
I would say that coordinating
which portlets are involved in eventing/updates (and which require re-display)
is in scope of SC [page / fragment level invalidation is not].
For out-of-band, we should make
sure we have clear processing phases that can be used to demarcate out
of band signalling. Possibly some sort of virtual clock?
regards,
Andre
-----Original Message-----
From: Tamari, Yossi [mailto:yossi.tamari@sap.com]
Sent: 06 August 2003 09:04
To: wsrp-coord@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrp-coord] Should we design in support for out-of band
even ts?
Hi Mike,
I am afraid I didn't get the "Able"
joke. You'll have to explain at the F2F...
I think you just moved from discussing
Cross Portlet Coordination to discussing cache invalidation, which is out
of the scope of this committee. The charter of this committee (if we had
one...) is to define coordination between portlets, not messages from the
portlet to the consumer.
While I do not object to defining
a set of events a portlet MAY send that MAY be meaningful to some consumers,
I do not think this should be the focus of this committee, and definitely
not to discuss things like caching.
I am not saying we should preclude
WSRP ever supporting OOB events, I am saying we should take it out of the
scope of discussions, and focus on our deliverable.
What we are doing in this SC is
going to be difficult enough to get everybody to agree to, we should not
even go in the direction of defining extra consumer behaviors except delivering
events/state changes.
Yossi.
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Freedman [mailto:Michael.Freedman@oracle.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 2:13 AM
To: wsrp-coord@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [wsrp-coord] Should we design in support for out-of band
even ts?
Yossi, should I call you Able? I agree with Rich
that there are producers/portlets which aren't dormant between consumer
requests -- for example portlets fronting syndication servers. At
some point in time we will need to address how these portlets can communicate
changes to its consumer. Piggybacking on the next consumer request
won't always be acceptable. An easy example is an InvalidateMyContent
event -- the above syndication server may need to send an invalidate event
to the consumer when information has been updated so the consumer knows
to rerender the portlet on subsequent requests. If this type of out-of-band
mechanism didn't exist the portlet would have to put a dummy action in
its content [like a refresh me button] just so piggybacking could occur.
That being said, I think its a medium/low priority to define out-of-band
eventing for 2.0. By this I think we should focus first on clearlying
defining an in-band capability [which I am not yet convinced is event based].
If we solve this soon enough then we can tackly out-of-band in 2.0
-- otherwise post 2.0. Though the actual priority is subject to change
depending on how we choose to define invalidation with respect to events.
My second expectation is that out-of-band eventing [when defined]
must be an optional consumer capability. I.e. portlets will have
to deal with running with consumers that don't provide such a service.
-Mike-
Tamari, Yossi wrote:
I think the best guidance we can
provide is to ignore this case, implicitly saying that we do not think
it should be used...
I agree that the _applications_
behind the portlets maybe receiving and sending OOB events, but I do not
think portlets should do that. Portlets have a very clear life cycle, and
in my view when they are not explicitly called by the container (and consumer)
they should be dormant (in a sense they only exist during the request cycle.
Between requests it's just their state that persists, just like servlets,
ASP pages, etc.).
Yossi.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rich Thompson [mailto:richt2@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 7:28 PM
To: wsrp-coord@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [wsrp-coord] Should we design in support for out-of band
events?
This is equivalent to saying that it is up to each implementation to decide
how out-of-band items get reflected into the WSRP interactions. My gut
instinct says this is where we will likely end up, but I think we would
do a disservice to the community-at-large if we don't at least consider
the implications related to out-of-band events and possibly provide some
guidance.
Rich Thompson
I'm not sure we should we care about out-of-band events, unless we
consider pushing them through WSRP calls. In other words, making them
in-band.
Alejandro
On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 06:19 AM, Rich Thompson wrote:
>
> I think it is important when considering this question to start with
> the realization that out-of-band events will occur. We need to
> consider how to reflect these into the interactions between the WSRP
> actors (Portlet, Producer, Consumer and End-User) when out-of-band
> communication between at least some of these actors is not in place.
>
> To consider:
> 1. Portlet/Producer receives an out-of-band event that may cause a
> change in its state.
> 2. Consumer receives an out-of-band event (i.e. not a user
> interaction) that it wishes to distribute to various Portlets. Does
> distributing coordination info (events or state) always result in
the
> aggregation of markup?
> 3. User-agent receives an event. Is any communication arising from
in
> this case just a virtual user-interaction (i.e. the other WSRP actors
> view it as a user-interaction)?
>
> Rich Thompson
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