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Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] Roles

This mapping works reasonably in a J2EE environment because the granularity
of role definitions doesn't vary too dramatically. As a web service spec,
WSRP had better worry about cross platform issues as well. As soon as one
moves out of the J2EE world, the chances that the granularity of role
definitions is close drops precipitously.

Rex suggested the role fields could just be optional ... they are, but what
this means for a Consumer that doesn't use roles and wants to use the
maximum number of Producers is pretending they support the spec defined
roles (e.g. mapping whatever internal access control mechanisms are in use
to the spec defined roles) and trying to map these onto the Producer
published roles. I assert this will fail miserably more than it will

                      Andre Kramer                                                                                 
                      <andre.kramer@eu.        To:       wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org                            
                      citrix.com>              cc:                                                                 
                                               Subject:  RE: [wsrp-wsia] Roles                                     
                      11/26/2002 08:48                                                                             

J2EE also has the concept of role mapping in that a developer can write her
application in terms of her usual set of roles. The deployer of the
application can then map those roles, at deployment time, using a
simple XML role reference description mechanism. I view wsrp consumer roles
as the analogue of the J2EE developer's role set, the consumer Portal admin
as the analogue of the application deployer (at service registration time),
and the role names on the wire as the J2EE container roles. So, we
potentially have two similar mappings of roles: consumer to producer and
168 Portlet to J2EE Container? Each requiring human intervention.


-----Original Message-----
From: Rich Thompson [mailto:richt2@us.ibm.com]
Sent: 26 November 2002 12:52
To: Martin Bryan
Cc: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [wsrp-wsia] Roles

I have had the uneasy feeling about roles for a while, but rewriting those
sections finally caused me to focus on it enough to see the detailed
reasons why (you site some good examples). At this point I think it is only
useful to that set of Consumer-Producer pairs that have a coordinated set
of roles and since we won't be able to define tight semantics it doesn't
belong in the spec.

On the address side, the variations in address are a big issue and WSRP is
not the right place to tackle it. We took guidance from the P3P data model
in this area though we did need to provide some structure for their
unstructured portions. I was hoping much of the variability could go into
the field named street as this is an array of strings. In addition, each of
the structures is individually extensible with the expectation that some of
those extensions will come back for consideration as base level fields in
v2. If there are other sources that would give a more internationalized
view of this area, we certainly would appreciate a pointer ....

                      "Martin Bryan"

                      <mtbryan@sgml.u-n        To:       Rich
                      et.com>                  cc:

                                               Subject:  Re: [wsrp][wsia]
Draft spec v0.85
                      11/25/2002 11:35



> Reflecting on this further, the whole schema of role mapping only really
> works when there is a huge overlap in the roles supported at the Producer
> and the Consumer. To me this is more and more smelling like something
> belongs as an extension rather than an inherent part of the spec.

At last you are beginning to see the problem. Now consider what happens if
the Producer is Finnish and the Consumer is Japanese and both use their own
languages to define their services. Now we have a real problem, which will
only be solved if you introduce a multilingual ontology of mapped terms
the equation.

The real problem, however, is how to do this dynamically, so that we can
annotate recorded roles with "related names from other sources" (e.g.
that someone has determined, by some off-line means, that A relates to B).

Incidentally your address info structure in section 10 has not been
internationalized. You need techniques for defining subsections of what you
call cities (e.g. Kensington, London) and for identifying blocks (both at
street and house level) and subunits of buildings (flats or suites). For
example, I have a friend in Roumania for whose address I need to identify
the flat number, the staircase, the block on the road (unless you call
26 a name!) and the district of the town in addition to the fields you
me to define once only if I want to send him something. It looks like I'm
going to have to define more extensions than you do base fields, even
every different Consume and Producer will have to define his own set of
extensions for most of these :-(

Martin Bryan
The SGML Centre, 29 Oldbury Orchard, Churchdown, Glos GL3 2PU, UK
Phone/Fax: +44 1452 714029  E-mail: mtbryan@sgml.u-net.com

For further details about The SGML Centre visit http://www.sgml.u-net.com

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