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Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11June



Alan,

I too would like to not have the issue of whether or not an entity is
persistent stay within the Producer, but scenarios such as the one Eilon
points out have driven us toward a design where the Consumer is able to
create a persistent entity and then use this persistent entity as the basis
for creating a variable number of transient entities whose interaction
states are  independent of each other, each often having a tweak in the
initial state as well. It is only the Consumer who has the knowledge of
when to orchestrate the difference in the lifecycles.

Rich


                                                                                                                     
                      Eilon Reshef                                                                                   
                      <eilon.reshef@webc        To:       "'Alan Kropp'" <akropp@epicentric.com>,                    
                      ollage.com>                wsia@lists.oasis-open.org, wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org                
                                                cc:                                                                  
                      06/11/2002 02:35          Subject:  RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for  
                      PM                         Tuesday  11 June                                                    
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                     



Alan,

I think that one example scenario is a search results page, say for hotels,
that dynamically displays multiple maps - a map for each hotel found.

Assuming that maps are remote services, and assuming that the number of
results is dynamic, the Consumer needs to create multiple copies of the map
service. If we allow the Producer to determine the persistence state of
those maps, that would mean that someone will have to take care of the
lifetime of those maps. The Consumer can't, because the page may be gone
without the Consumer never knowing about it (the user closes the browser
window). The Producer can't, because it can't tell whether the Consumer has
stored a reference to those maps as part of a design-time description of a
user page.

Is that along the lines of what you were looking for?

Eilon
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Alan Kropp [mailto:akropp@epicentric.com]
      Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:18 PM
      To: 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'; 'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'
      Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for
      Tuesday 11 June



      I find that the question of a Consumer creating a persistent vs. a
      transient
      entity to be a little troubling.


      Isn't the Consumer primarily interested in getting a handle to an
      _entity_
      (be that transient or persistent), and then using that handle to
      direct
      subsequent requests to?


      Could we not consider persistence and transience to be entirely
      Producer
      concerns?  I understand from the sequence in the spec (pp. 6-8) that
      the
      only supporting scenario for the Consumer calling
      "createTransientEntity" is
      out of an effort to maximize the efficiency of the conversation with
      the
      Producer.  This is a worthy goal, of course, but the Producer should
      advertise its interaction behavior in the meta-data, right?
      Presumably the
      Producer uses the meta-data to hint to the Consumer the way(s) the
      Consumer
      SHOULD structure invocation requests efficiently.


      I'd love to see some more convincing scenarios to support pushing the

      persistent/transient aspect of the conversation out to the Consumer.
      Otherwise, I'd love even more to limit our specification to a single
      "createEntity" call.


      Alan





      -----Original Message-----
      From: Carsten Leue [mailto:CLEUE@de.ibm.com]
      Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:19 AM
      To: Gil Tayar
      Cc: thomas klein6; 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org';
      'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'
      Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for
      Tuesday 11 June






      Gil -


      1-3: the consumer MUST explicitly create entities (transient or
      persistent). It can decide to create sessions explicitly if it wants
      to
      share them amongs entities, otherwise it can let the producer create
      sessions on the fly.
      4: the decision to have multiple entities per session is up to the
      consumer
      who make this choice based on the producer's metadata. e.g think of
      portlets that form a shop together. These would want to share a
      session
      with each other. But the consumer could decide to have two shops of
      the
      same type on the same page. Then there would be two sessions and only
      the
      consumer could know what portlet shares what session.
      5: The consumer should create a session before issuing a getFragment
      call.
      The entity is created whenever necessary.
      6: A Session is a bucket that holds some data (physically on the
      provider)
      and times-out after a while. A transient entity is a remote portlet
      that
      does not store any data in a DB.


      Hope that helped.


      Best regards
      Carsten Leue


      -------
      Dr. Carsten Leue
      Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B÷blingen , Germany
      Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401






      |---------+---------------------------->
      |         |           Gil Tayar        |
      |         |           <Gil.Tayar@webcol|
      |         |           lage.com>        |
      |         |                            |
      |         |           06/11/2002 09:28 |
      |         |           AM               |
      |         |           Please respond to|
      |         |           Gil Tayar        |
      |         |                            |
      |---------+---------------------------->

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        |       To:       Carsten Leue/Germany/IBM@IBMDE
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      <wsia@lists.oasis-open.org>, "'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'"
      <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>, Thomas|
        |        Klein6/Germany/IBM@IBMDE
      |
        |       Subject:  RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces]
      agenda
      for Tuesday        11 June
      |
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      Carsten, could you clarify some things for me?


      1. If sessions and entities are orthogonal, what SHOULD the Consumer
      do?
      2. SHOULD it create a transient entity _and_ a session?
      3. MUST it do so?
      4. Who gets to decide whether there are multiple entities per session
      or
      multiple sessions per entities?
      5. When SHOULD a Consumer create a session and when a transient
      entity?
      6. What _is_ a session, logically? What _is_ a transient entity?


      Gil


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Carsten Leue [mailto:CLEUE@de.ibm.com]
      Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 08:45
      To: Alan Kropp
      Cc: 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'; 'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'; thomas
      klein6
      Subject: Re: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for
      Tuesday 11 June






      Alan - some first thoughts


      1. the general concept is that entities (transient or persistent) and

      sessions are orthogonal. There might be mulitple entities per session
      and
      (at least for persistent entities) multiple sessions per entity. An
      example
      for the first case would be that entities share session data within
      the
      same user request. An example for the second case are portlets on a
      common
      page (group page) that are access simultaneously by multiple users.
      A transient entity differs from a persistent entity in that its data
      does
      not persist and its lifecycle is coupled with the session life cycle.


      2. Eilon pointed out in a comment to the interface proposal that
      batch
      processing is already part of SOAP. I was not aware of that and will
      look
      it up until the call.





      Best regards
      Carsten Leue


      -------
      Dr. Carsten Leue
      Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B÷blingen , Germany
      Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401






      |---------+---------------------------->
      |         |           Alan Kropp       |
      |         |           <akropp@epicentri|
      |         |           c.com>           |
      |         |                            |
      |         |           06/11/2002 01:54 |
      |         |           AM               |
      |         |           Please respond to|
      |         |           Alan Kropp       |
      |         |                            |
      |---------+---------------------------->


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        |       To:       "'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'"
      <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>, "'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'"
      <wsia@lists.oasis-open.org>        |
        |       cc:
      |
        |       Subject:  [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda
      for
      Tuesday 11  June
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      I think we'll have plenty of discussion around the merged document
      Rich and
      Carsten put together.


      The two main issues I see that have arisen on the email lists are:


      1.  What is the difference between transient entities and sessions,
      and is
      there enough of a distinction to warrant including both in the
      specification?


      2.  There are efficiency concerns around the use of arrays in the
      method
      signatures, basically to enable batched requests for network
      efficiency.





      Call-in numbers:
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      Alan





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