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Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin
Bah and humbug. This looks like the fun part! Please everyone do me a favor, and remove Tony Scott, John Jackson and Pat Snack from the replies... I want to communicate to them at a high level when there is change or movement happening. thank you. john ps - i'm pretty thick-skinned. i also have wrath like a woman scorned. ; > Matthew MacKenzie wrote: > I think that we may be a pack of pedantic creeps :-) > > I'm sure John is cursing us right now ;p > > Chiusano Joseph wrote: > >> Thanks John - that clears it up. ebMS v3, not ebXML v3. I now retract my >> original observation. :) >> >> Kind Regards, >> Joseph Chiusano >> Booz Allen Hamilton >> Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World >> >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: john hardin [mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com] Sent: Thursday, >>> February 03, 2005 10:01 AM >>> To: Matthew MacKenzie >>> Cc: Chiusano Joseph; David Webber (XML); Monica J. Martin; Duane >>> Nickull; dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com; >>> tony.scott@gm.com; john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org; >>> ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com; golsen@contivo.com; John >>> Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net; tdean@criticaltech.net; >>> ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark >>> Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin >>> >>> OK, I am now learning to be very specific. I am referring to ebMS v3. >>> >>> Matthew MacKenzie wrote: >>> >>> >>>> John, >>>> >>>> Where did this vision come from? I didn't get the memo. >>> >>> Certainly, >>> >>>> the ebMS team has communicated and moved our work in that >>> >>> direction, >>> >>>> but I don't see other ebStandards explicitly moving toward >>> >>> that vision. >>> >>> >>>> -matt >>>> >>>> Chiusano Joseph wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Sounds great - where can I get more OASIS-official public >>> >>> information >>> >>>>> on this? And also on ebXML v2? This is highly useful and valuable >>>>> information. >>>>> >>>>> Kind Regards, >>>>> Joseph Chiusano >>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton >>>>> Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: john hardin [mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com] Sent: >>>>>> Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:30 AM >>>>>> To: David Webber (XML) >>>>>> Cc: Chiusano Joseph; Monica J. Martin; Duane Nickull; >>>>>> dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com; >>>>>> tony.scott@gm.com; john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org; >>>>>> ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com; >>> >>> golsen@contivo.com; John >>> >>>>>> Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net; tdean@criticaltech.net; >>>>>> ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin >>>>>> >>>>>> That would be the list, thanks David. >>>>>> Joe, the ebMS v3 direction has been (and I think still is) to >>>>>> encompass the WS-I Basic Profile, the WS-Security and other WS* >>>>>> specs, thereby moving towards convergence. A curious >>> >>> point is that >>> >>>>>> we don't see that kind of outreach yet from the other side.... >>>>>> >>>>>> john >>>>>> >>>>>> David Webber (XML) wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That is exactly what we are qualifiying here in ebSOA!!! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We have BPSS V2, ebMS V3, Registey V3 - but no updated >>> >>> architecture >>> >>>>>>> that documents the new capabilities that all this enables. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, DW >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> >>>>>>> To: "john hardin" <john@sanghainteractive.com>; "Monica >>> >>> J. Martin" >>> >>> >>>>>>> <Monica.Martin@Sun.COM>; "David RR Webber" >>>>>> >>>>>> <david@drrw.info>; "Duane >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Nickull" <dnickull@adobe.com>; <dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com>; >>>>>>> <jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com>; <tony.scott@gm.com>; >>>>>>> <john.l.jackson@gm.com>; <psnack@aiag.org>; >>>>>> >>>>>> <ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com>; >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> <ronschuldt@msn.com>; <golsen@contivo.com>; "John Casillas" >>>>>>> <johnc@mbproject.org>; <mjyader@comcast.net>; >>>>>>> <tdean@criticaltech.net>; <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>; >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> "James Bryce Clark" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> <jamie.clark@oasis-open.org> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 7:29 AM >>>>>>> Subject: RE: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <Quote> >>>>>>> a) work towards interop between the WS and eb camps (ebXML v3 is >>>>>>> closing that gap rapidly - thanks Dale!) </Quote> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Can you please explain what "ebXML v3" is? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joseph Chiusano >>>>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton >>>>>>> Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: john hardin [mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com] >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 3:58 AM >>>>>>>> To: Monica J. Martin; David RR Webber; Duane Nickull; >>>>>>>> dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com; >>>>>>>> tony.scott@gm.com; john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org; >>>>>>>> ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com; >>>>>> >>>>>> golsen@contivo.com; John >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net; tdean@criticaltech.net; >>>>>>>> ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks Monica and thanks to all for the warm welcome. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have copied a number of folks on this, because I >>> >>> would like to >>> >>>>>>>> enlist their assistance for the ebSOA editing >>> >>> activities or >>> >>>>>> just for >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> ideas as we move forward. Also Jamie and Dale asked me about >>>>>>>> addressing the ebXML-jc group. I had a good >>> >>> conversation with Jamie >>> >>> >>>>>>>> the other night, and got some direction from both him and >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> from Duane. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would very much like to address the ebXML-jc, and get a >>>>>>>> braindump how the two groups need to dovetail. I'll >>> >>> plan on being >>> >>>>>>>> on the call next Wed if allowed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My primary vision for the ebSOA group is to move forward >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> with the work >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> from the charter (pattern catalog) and act as a facilitator towards >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> interoperability among the upcoming business process >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> frameworks (WS*, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> ebXML and SemWeb are three that are working to gain >>> >>> dominance). The >>> >>>>>>>> request-response model is a very simplistic view that >>> >>> isn't >>> >>>>>> currently >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> mapping well onto the true complexity that large >>> >>> industries have >>> >>>>>>>> developed in their shared business processes. For >>> >>> example, >>> >>>>>> no one will >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> argue today that inventory visibility for the automotive >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> industry is a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> request-response model between two partners. Healthcare >>>>>>>> >>> >>> is another >>> >>>>>>>> area that is very complex, and requires multiple >>>>>> >>>>>> interactions between >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> large numbers of process participants to complete the >>> >>> information >>> >>>>>>>> exchange, with forks and decisions during the execution. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The other reality is that process participants require constant >>>>>>>> realtime feeds of information from many points in the >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> process, which >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> are owned and offered by various companies of various >>> >>> sizes and IT >>> >>>>>>>> capabilities. >>>>>>>> This spells out, to me at least, the need for a network >>>>>>>> >>> >>> operating >>> >>>>>>>> framework, where processes run in an "app fabric" >>>>>>>> that is dependable and very open. Then we can layer event >>>>>>>> causation techniques and other things like shared >>> >>> industry process >>> >>>>>>>> B.A.M. on top. The network REALLY IS the computer.... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To accomplish this kind of integration, I believe that >>> >>> we need to: >>> >>> >>>>>>>> a) work towards interop between the WS and eb camps >>> >>> (ebXML v3 is >>> >>>>>>>> closing that gap rapidly - thanks Dale!) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> b) gather and document, then publish and evangelize, >>> >>> real world use >>> >>>>>>>> cases that prove SOA principles using ebXML and WS and >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> shine a light >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> on successful implementations >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> c) include both WS* and ebXML patterns, along with SemWeb and >>>>>>>> agent patterns (no rocks thrown, please - the >>> >>> SemWeb/Agent stuff >>> >>>>>>>> is the long-term target) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> d) work with WS-I and the specs to ensure that we have >>> >>> consistent >>> >>>>>>>> direction towards convergence >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My belief is that the entire IT industry is poised on the >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> verge of a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> major break in what I think is so far a stagnation. The >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> potential of >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> the internet is clear - and everyone is aware that it's >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> potential is >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> more than just human readable web pages. We all feel it, >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> business has >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> been preparing (somewhat) for it, and the engineers all >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> want to build >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> However, this level of information integration won't >>> >>> happen unless: >>> >>> >>>>>>>> a) the path to implementation of standards based >>> >>> messaging between >>> >>>>>>>> partner, or producer/consumer, applications, is very clear >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> b) all players involved in complex processes can participate >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> c) the integration effort doesn't involve such a long, >>> >>> drawn out >>> >>>>>>>> mapping effort everytime (this kills progress on the >>> >>> entire >>> >>>>>> movement) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> The industry will continue to stall until we solve some >>>>>>>> >>> >>> of these >>> >>>>>>>> problems. I would like to help by completing the >>> >>> patterns and the >>> >>> >>>>>>>> catalog of patterns, and publish the use cases to >>> >>> describe >>> >>>>>> it. There >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> also needs to be a major outreach effort to all industry >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> groups that >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> are building shared business processes (which by the way, look >>>>>>>> much more complex than simple request-response models). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That's it, I guess.... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John >>>>>>>> 313.930.5323 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Monica J. Martin wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> John, >>>>>>>>> On a related point (to ebSOA that is), previously Matt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> MacKenzie was >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the ebSOA representative to the ebXML-jc. Perhaps you >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> could provide >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> some insight into your overall vision of the ebSOA TC >>>>>>>>> >>> >>> based on its >>> >>>>>>>>> original charter. I've asked Jamie Clark to give an >>> >>> update >>> >>>>>> on ebSOA >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> and SOA TC efforts. In the past, it was anticipated that >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ebSOA would >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> assist in defining the next generation architecture >>> >>> for >>> >>>>>> ebXML. Your >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~ >>>>>>>> john c hardin >>>>>>>> sanghainteractive.com >>>>>>>> 313.930.5323 cell >>>>>>>> mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world >>>>>>>> >>> >>> in >>> >>>>>> the image >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> of a global village." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~ >>>>>> john c hardin >>>>>> sanghainteractive.com >>>>>> 313.930.5323 cell >>>>>> mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com >>>>>> >>>>>> "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world >>> >>> in the image >>> >>>>>> of a global village." >>>>>> >>>>>> Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> ~~~~~~~~~ >>> john c hardin >>> sanghainteractive.com >>> 313.930.5323 cell >>> mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com >>> >>> "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in the image >>> of a global village." >>> >>> Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962 >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > > > -- ~~~~~~~~~ john c hardin sanghainteractive.com 313.930.5323 cell mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in the image of a global village." Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962
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