Text from the chat room and attendees

All - here is the text of the chat room. Frank, this may help you with minutes.

Also - here are the attendees:

Parisse, Véronique - Aubay S.A.

Tabone, Catherine - ELI Task Force

Bennett, Daniel - Individual

Bennett, Frank - Japan Legal Information Institute, Nagoya Univ....

Ensign, Chet - OASIS

Palmirani, Monica - University of Bologna-CIRSFID

Vitali, Fabio - University of Bologna-CIRSFID

Vergottini, Grant - Xcential Group, LLC

[11:03] Fabio Vitali: Hello to everybody

[11:08] Fabio Vitali: Please record your attendance at https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/legalcitem-technical/event.php?event_id=37782

[11:11] Monica Palmirani: also Grant

[11:13] Chet Ensign (OASIS): Frank - for your minutes - attending so far: IndividualDaniel BennettMember
Japan Legal Information Institute, Nagoya ...Frank BennettMember
OASISChet EnsignMember
University of Bologna-CIRSFIDMonica PalmiraniMember
ELI Task ForceCatherine TaboneMember
Xcential Group, LLCGrant VergottiniMember
University of Bologna-CIRSFIDFabio Vitali

[11:13] Fabio Vitali: You can find the sencond draft here: https://wiki.oasis-open.org/legalcitem/FundamentalRequirements2nd

[11:14] Fabio Vitali: 1) Document fragments
From: Chet Ensign (at the last conference call)
Issue: The text discussed documents, citations to documents and identifiers of documents. But fragments of documents are cited just as much or even more than whole documents. Change the text to reflect this. 
Discussion: none whatsoever: Chet is right. 
Proposal: 
- Modify 
citation: an explicit, plain-text, human-readable mention of a legal text as found in another text, providing sufficient detail for a reader with appropriate legal training to identify with precision the relevant text 
into 
"citation: an explicit, plain-text, human-readable mention of a legal document (or a fragment thereof) as found in another text, providing sufficient detail for a reader with appropriate legal training to identify with precision the relevant text"
- Modify 
identifier: a string univocally associated to a document to identify it
into 
"identifier: a string univocally associated to a document (or a fragment thereof) to identify it"

[11:14] anonymous morphed into DanielBennett

[11:15] Fabio Vitali: MOTION: approve this modifications

[11:16] Monica Palmirani: is it possible to identify what is in the scope of TC and what is not?

[11:17] Fabio Vitali: Issue from Monica: always specify whether something  is in scope or not in ghr vocabulary

[11:17] Chet Ensign (OASIS): The points being discussed are in the email at https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/legalcitem-technical/201404/msg00015.html

[11:17] Fabio Vitali: This will be issue # 11

[11:17] Fabio Vitali: 3) Necessity of a resolution step
From: Monica Palmirani, on April 29, in message https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/legalcitem-technical/email/archives/201404/msg00011.html
Issue: "we need probably to add some paragraphs in the first deliverable concerning the resolver definition. I suppose we are thinking a LegalciteM IRI syntax able to foster a resolver, at least, for converting the "logic uri reference" into the "physical url(s)";"
Discussion: the current text does say: 
Locators MAY act as identifiers, which MAY be used as references for citations, but locators are in general POOR identifiers in the legal domain for a number of reasons explained in the following. Therefore, while tempting, it is naive and limiting to conclude that the purpose of this TC is to determine how to associate the locator of a document to a legal citation. It is rather more precise to say that the purpose of this TC is to determine a way to associate resolvable identifiers to a legal citation.
but in fact in the following these reasons are not explained as promised. 
Proposal: At the end of the document, after 
Also, subcommittees should also identify how the references to documents of their classes are impacted by the layered view of documents. For instance, in legislation it is customary to differentiate static references to a specific version of a document (e.g. when modifying a statute) and dynamic references that are automatically updated to the new version of the linked document whenever it changes.
add a new paragraph stating: 
"It will be a rare case indeed the citation (and therefore the need for a reference) pointing to an FRBR Item (i.e., to a specific file on a specific computer at a specific IP address) or to an FRBR Manifestation (i.e., to a specific characterization in a specific file format of a document). Most frequently a citation points to a legal document existing on a different conceptual layer and in a different level of reality than the physical copies it is embodied by, or by the data formats in which each copy is expressed. More frequently, therefore the citation will identify a document at a more abstract level, e.g., an FRBR _expression_ when the citation is to a specific version or variant of the document, or an FRBR Work when the citation is to all these versions or variants, or to the one that is identified through a possibly complex contextualization process. In these cases, therefore, the citation MUST be converted to a reference to a Work or an _expression_, which is resolved into the physical Locator of the Item only when needed, therefore separating the legal aspects of the identification of the correct version and variant of a document from the technical aspects of the dereferencing of a resource on the World Wide Web."

[11:24] Chet Ensign (OASIS): ...

[11:27] Chet Ensign (OASIS): So what you are saying is that the reference *must not be* a hard-wired pointer to a specific physical location or, said another way, that the reference is not dependent on anyone's particular physical organization / storage decisions

[11:28] Fabio Vitali: correct

[11:28] Chet Ensign (OASIS): Got it - ok thanks. I agree.

[11:28] Frank Bennett: Daniel: +1

[11:31] Fabio Vitali: My dream is to have a conceptual data structure, the "feature set", which can be expressed as a http:// uri, as a urn URN, a CSL xml fragment, as a BIRO RDF fragment, as an OpenURL attribute list

[11:32] Fabio Vitali: etc

[11:37] Fabio Vitali: issue 3: partially approvd

[11:38] Chet Ensign (OASIS): ...

[11:38] Fabio Vitali: 4) Relationship between work, _expression_ and manifestation levels
From: Monica Palmirani, on April 29, in message https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/legalcitem-technical/email/archives/201404/msg00011.html
Issue: "the resolver should also to manage the relationship between work, _expression_, manifestation levels in the different versions and languages;"
Discussion: I hope that the proposal to solve issue 3 also covers this issue. 
Proposal: the same as issue 3.

[11:38] Chet Ensign (OASIS): 4) Relationship between work, _expression_ and manifestation levels
From: Monica Palmirani, on April 29, in message https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/legalcitem-technical/email/archives/201404/msg00011.html
Issue: "the resolver should also to manage the relationship between work, _expression_, manifestation levels in the different versions and languages;"
Discussion: I hope that the proposal to solve issue 3 also covers this issue. 
Proposal: the same as issue 3.

[11:39] Monica Palmirani: yes

[11:39] Fabio Vitali: 5) Multiple identifiers
From: Monica Palmirani, on April 29, in message https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/legalcitem-technical/email/archives/201404/msg00011.html
Issue: "It is interesting to introduce also the case to have multiple "logic uri(s)" for the same legal source.
The name of the "logic uri" should be univocal, not unique. Inside of the Legislative subcommittee we have discussed the possibility to have "alias" for the same legal source. Example: "Public Law 112-29, Sept 16,2011" is also cited in the text as "Leahy-Smith America Invents Act" or "125 STAT 284" depending to the type of document, so it is interesting to have alias for managing different cases."   "
Discussion: I agree. 
Proposal: Add to 
identifier: a string univocally associated to a document to identify it. References may use identifiers, or may not. In particular, we must remember that references are representations of the citation, and not of the identifier that the citation resolves into.
the following sentence: 
"It is also important to notice that legal documents are often cited in multiple ways; for instance, "Public Law 112-29, Sept 16,2011" is also frequently cited as "Leahy-Smith America Invents Act" or as "125 STAT 284". Similarly, we must consider the existence of multiple different identifiers that identify the same document. An identifier is therefore *univocal* (i.e., an identifier identifies one specific document), but not necessarily *unique* (i.e., many different identifiers may identify the same document). "

[11:40] Monica Palmirani: it is really important for capturing "short title" tradition and abbreviation tradition

[11:42] Monica Palmirani: univocal

[11:43] Monica Palmirani: multiple IRI for the same legal source

[11:43] Chet Ensign (OASIS): Yep

[11:49] Fabio Vitali: BTW I DO agree that there shall be a schema for feature lists

[11:49] Chet Ensign (OASIS): Frank: +1 one - citation is text & we don't touch that; reference is what we define / enable to be constructed

[11:53] Monica Palmirani: If the legal resource is cited frequently in two main forms following the national legal tradition (e.g. long form and short title) the idea is to have two identifiers: one principle (long) and the other alias (short title). It depends to the legal tradition. The resolver makes the work to point to the best option.

[11:55] Monica Palmirani: Esample: identifier /us/act/2011-09-16/112-29

[11:57] Monica Palmirani: it is a different work

[11:58] Chet Ensign (OASIS): Does a 'reference' contain an 'identifier'? Or does a resolver take the reference and use it to find an identifier that it then uses to navigate to the document?

[11:59] Frank Bennett: Chet: I like door number 2.

[12:01] Monica Palmirani: reference possible: /us/act/112-29/ because it is incomplete in the text so the resolver needs to map this reference in the identifier and then to the physical files

[12:04] Frank Bennett: In our discussions so far, we have examples only of human-readable citations. It would help clarity to have examples in pseudo-code of "references" (the component-based form).

[12:05] Monica Palmirani: it is a matter of the subcommittees

[12:05] Monica Palmirani: to collect textual fragment of citations especially the odd ones

[12:06] Monica Palmirani: short title is included in the first section usually

[12:07] Catherine Tabone: For UK legislation "short title" is a legally defined term, there is a "short titles act"

[12:07] Monica Palmirani: the same for Kenya and South Africa legislation

[12:07] Monica Palmirani: SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE; TABLE OF CONTENTS.
(a) SHORT TITLE.This Act may be cited as the Leahy-Smith
America Invents Act.

[12:08] Frank Bennett: Next week works for me.

[12:09] Monica Palmirani: I am travelling to Seoul. Please justify my absence for the righ of vote.

[12:09] Chet Ensign (OASIS): Next week works for me

[12:09] Frank Bennett: Yo.

[12:11] V. Parisse: Next week there is the Legislative subcommittee on 05:00pm to 06:00pm CEST

[12:12] Monica Palmirani: The next week at the same time is scheduled the Legislative-Subcommittee.

[12:12] Monica Palmirani: Take care of this. Thanks.

[12:13] Monica Palmirani:  great Veronique the same thought!

--

/chet
----------------
Chet Ensign
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