Re: [smartgrid-discuss] Pricing standards

[David Holmberg <david.holmberg@nist.gov>]

Hi Toby,

How do you see demand charges fitting in with dynamic pricing? Whoever
manages the distribution system has to be able to price electricity at a
local level (or customer level) for demand. So the price has a location
field, or customer code, or what? How do we get a local price distributed
to a specific customer or locality? How does the distribution system
owner communicate demand charge information to the market to effect price
changes?

Speaking of locality issues, you raised the issue of emergency response
needing building address or some GIS polygon, and similar information for
utility operations (e.g., outage management, voltage sag). How are these
similar, how different? Seems that emergency response is largely focused
on address, versus utility operations which might be substation focused,
or down to the meter level (which is address of course). Do we use
geospatial coordinates for the front entrance, the meter, and for a
polygon area when required? What does that have to do with a distribution
circuit?

You just raised the issue of quantity, which I hadn't included. The idea
of getting a cheaper price if you buy in bulk. So, price depends on (1)
where you are and (2) how much you use in addition to (3) source
properties and (4) quality.

Perhaps we keep a bill broken out as mine is according to generation
charge, transmission charge, and distribution charge.

• The main component of price is generation and this covers source properties and quality
• transmission charge would cover distance from source
• distribution charge would include demand charges due to distribution system constraints (but I'm pretty ignorant about what else demand charges might cover)
• plus there might be a % discount based on quantity

Some thoughts for now,
David


At 11:32 AM 12/10/2008, Toby Considine wrote:

I think we have to remember that we get the greatest interoperability from a *light* interface.
 
I may price my power because of a Utah mandated Tariff. To the California buyer, this is merely a price. If I am doing distributed generation from the Home Owner's Association of the recently built Off-TheGrid Neighborhood produced by [Comodity Homebuilder here], I may price my power based upon whether running the wind turbines does a better job of keeping Canadian Geese of the lawns….
 
The DR customer/recipient does not care how you came up with the price. In particular, I doubt that the decision maker receiving OpenADR price signals going to the Target Office in Minneapolis for stores in California cares at all which tariffs in California generated the prices. That decision maker is inward looking at his own business processes. What portion of the cost of my eggs at the store is due to feed or to shipping or to reduced margins during market surplus?
 
The supplier need to know how the supplier is pricing wares. The buyer needs to make bids and be held to them. And that's all. And pricing in this way is common for I2g/B3G/H2g/V2g…except where quantity discounts apply, which may be for I2g.


On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 8:45 AM, John Gillerman <johng@sisconet.com> wrote:

David,

 

I am new to this group.  Just to provide some background, I am on IEC TC 57 WG 13, 13, 16, and 19. 

 

Your doc mentioned TC 57 so I thought I would forward two things that I think are relevant:

 

1) A recent copy of the IEC 61970 Common Information Model.  This is the data model described in UML that TC 57 uses for enterprise integration.   There is some modeling related to schedules in the CIM. This is an Enterprise Architect file.

2) A recent paper about ADR.  This paper discuses the use of OPC Unified Architecture (OPC UA).  OPC UA is the web services version of the services IEC 61970 specifies for exchanging CIM data.  OPC UA is also known as IEC 62541.  While OPC UA is new, it is likely to be widely supported by industrial control system vendors.  As such it is a good choice for DR related communication with industrial customers.

 

You should know that EPRI and the IEC are beginning to actively work in this area.  We probably want to figure out how things fit together at some point so that we don't end up doing the same thing twice. 

 

Regards,

John Gillerman

SISCO

www.sisconet.com

T: 732 937-9745

F: 586 254-0053

M: 732 979-9595

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From: David Holmberg [ mailto:david.holmberg@nist.gov]

Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 3:08 PM

To: smartgrid-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org; b2g_interop@nist.gov

Subject: [smartgrid-discuss] Pricing standards

All,

As part of the discussion on smart grid economics, in addition to schedules is the more general topic of pricing. I have written up some thoughts on what we need to do to move forward on pricing. Part of this is getting some standardized schedule as Toby mentioned. Perhaps a pricing standard will end up in OASIS as well. Does everyone know about the GridEcon meeting being planned for March in Chicago? The plan is to come with a pricing proposal in hand to that meeting, and I believe there is significant work to tackle prior to that time. Your input is appreciated.

David

David Holmberg

NIST Building & Fire Research Lab

Building Environment Division, Mechanical Systems and Controls Group

100 Bureau Drive, Bldg. 226, Room B114, MS 8631, Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8631

TEL: 301/975-6450   FAX: 301/975-8973   

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--
________________________________________
"When one door closes, another opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the one which has opened for us." -- Alexander Graham Bell
________________________________________
Toby Considine
Chair, OASIS oBIX TC http://www.oasis-open.org
Co-Chair, OASIS Technical Advisory Board
Toby.Considine@gmail.com
TC9, Inc
Phone: (919)619-2104
blog: www.NewDaedalus.com

David Holmberg
NIST Building & Fire Research Lab
Building Environment Division, Mechanical Systems and Controls Group
100 Bureau Drive, Bldg. 226, Room B114, MS 8631, Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8631
TEL: 301/975-6450   FAX: 301/975-8973