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Subject: FW: Ruby and collation in DITA


JoAnn T. Hackos, PhD
Comtech Services, Inc.
710 Kipling Street, Suite 400
Denver CO 80215



From: Deborah_Pickett@moldflow.com [mailto:Deborah_Pickett@moldflow.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 12:18 AM
To: Richard Ishida; 'Felix Sasaki'
Cc: JoAnn Hackos
Subject: RE: Ruby and collation in DITA

Hi Richard, Felix,

I know that the DITA Translation subcommittee has shelved ruby for the moment (according to the 13 August 2007 minutes), so this is largely moot until it becomes unshelved . . . but as a kind of parting shot, I wanted to say that you have convinced me of the need to keep <rp> in DITA.

In response to the W3C recommendation's remark:
> > "Some user agents might not understand ruby markup, or may
> > not be able to render ruby text appropriately."  
I said:
> > There are no DITA user
> > agents that won't understand ruby markup.

On further reflection, I'm wrong.  There *is* a DITA user agent that doesn't understand ruby: a topic that does not include the ruby domain, but wants to conref a phrase from a topic that understands ruby.

<!-- phrases.xml -->
<topic id="ja_phrases" xml:lang="ja" domains="(topic ruby)" >
    <ruby id="kyoto"><rb>京都</rb><rp>(</rp><rt>きょうと</rt><rp>)</rp></ruby>

<!-- Assuming that <ruby> specializes from <ph> -->
<topic id="puller" domains="">
  <p xml:lang="ja">私は<ph conref="phrases.xml#ja_phrases/kyoto"/>に行った。</p>

I'd expect that to resolve, after generalization-during-conref, as
  <p xml:lang="ja">私は<ph><ph>京都</ph><ph>(</ph><ph>きょうと</ph><ph>)</ph></ph>に行った。</p>
and display as 私は京都(きょうと)に行った。 in the "puller" topic, as a passable fallback for a topic that has no knowledge of ruby.

Something to keep in mind whenever the need for ruby in DITA arises.

Deborah Pickett
Information Architect, Moldflow Corporation, Melbourne

"Richard Ishida" <ishida@w3.org> wrote on 19/07/2007 06:58:45 PM:

> Hello Deborah, Felix,
> I haven't been able to follow this discussion in detail, but here are some
> thoughts that I hope may help...
> > > there is a use case to add parenthesis if the processor does not
> > > understand ruby <rp> , see
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby/#fig1.7 as an example.
> >
> > That's certainly true of (X)HTML, which is what the TR says
> > it is for (right at the top in the abstract).  But it's not
> > true of DITA.
> >
> > The difference is in the opening sentence of section 1.2.2:
> > "Some user agents might not understand ruby markup, or may
> > not be able to render ruby text appropriately."  
> >
> > In the context of DITA, a "user agent" would be the
> > transformation stylesheets (which will recognize the ruby
> > content and generate correct XHTML or PDF or whatever), or an
> > editing tool (which will recognize the ruby content and
> > present it to the author, perhaps with appropriate CSS
> > :before and :after generated text).  There are no DITA user
> > agents that won't understand ruby markup. That fact
> > evaporates the need for <rp>.
> But
> [1] what if DITA marked up content is converted to, say, XHTML and displayed
> by a user agent that doesn't support ruby: how would an author indicate what
> type of fallback parens they wanted to use? For example, characters used for
> Japanese rp are likely to be different from those used in UK.  A DITA
> processor may not need to use rp, but I think it would make for more
> interoperable *content* to allow it in the markup.
> [2] note that someone may actually want to display the ruby inline as a
> conscious presentational choice in certain contexts - see for example the
> CSS Ruby Module that has an 'inline' value[1] for the 'display' property.
> In that case, too, the author should be able to specify the preferred
> characters in rp elements.
> I guess what I'm saying is, authors can ignore rp if they feel DITA
> processors are the only things that will see their content, but it would be
> better to allow for the full content model because (a) we can't always
> forsee how the content will be used, and (b) it won't harm the DITA
> processor.
> RI
> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-css3-ruby-20021024/#properties  Note that
> the descriptive section for this value is missing from the spec and needs to
> be added.
> ============
> Richard Ishida
> Internationalization Lead
> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
> http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
> http://www.w3.org/International/
> http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Deborah_Pickett@moldflow.com
> > [mailto:Deborah_Pickett@moldflow.com]
> > Sent: 19 July 2007 03:23
> > To: Felix Sasaki
> > Cc: ishida@w3.org; joann.hackos@comtech-serv.com
> > Subject: Re: Ruby and collation in DITA
> >

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