Re: [regrep] Re: [ebsoa] Re: [regrep] 20 reasons why web services are like Paris Hilton

["David RR Webber" <david@drrw.info>]

Rex,

This pre-supposes that the participants have any interest in
behaving as you are suggesting.

I believe that market pressures and other self-interests drive
them in the directions you are seeing.  Things happen for
reasons.  The high level of complexity and high rate of
churn are seen as a good things - because that provides
market advantage.

Basically you have to ask yourself why the ebXML model
of collaboratively developed common standards that are
relatively simple and complete does not work for these
people.

It's not being done that way - because they specifically do
not want to do it that way.  It's very hard for the leopard to
change his spots.   What is interesting though is that the
current economic climate and changing landscape of
software worldwide means we may soon see leopards
evolving to survive.

When the head of Microsoft comes out and says that
open source efforts and standards are bad for the
US software industry because it allows off-shore people
to take over - one has to shake ones head - since
Microsoft appears to be a huge employer of offshore
services itself.  And this probably tells you the reverse is
true - that local communities of interest developing
open source solutions for their own needs is the best
defense against corporation devaluing labour and
throwing local value out the window to suit
cost accounting agendas.

To me that is all the crux of this.  What kind of software
industry best suits local communities giving them the
services and solutions at best value while enabling the
innovators in those communities to do this in
reliable and open ways?

DW.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rex Brooks" <rexb@starbourne.com>
To: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>; "Matthew MacKenzie"
<mattm@adobe.com>
Cc: "David RR Webber" <david@drrw.info>; <regrep@lists.oasis-open.org>;
<ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>; "ebSOA" <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 11:32 AM
Subject: [regrep] Re: [ebsoa] Re: [regrep] 20 reasons why web services are
like Paris Hilton


> Let's start with specific chapter and verse for these shall we?
>
> Interoperability or lack thereof between various specifications/standards?
>
> Interoperability or lack thereof between various Web Services-based
> application frameworks?
>
> Addressing specifics is perhaps more helpful than simply decrying the
> current state of affairs, so a list of these would be an adequate
> basis for discussing ways in which interoperabiity could be improved
> or established where it is lacking.
>
> Also, where there are conflicts, it seems to me that making it known
> is a reasonable place to begin a dialog between the adherents of
> conflicting mechanisms, standards, specifications.
>
> Ciao,
> Rex
>
> At 9:15 AM -0500 3/26/04, Chiusano Joseph wrote:
> >Matthew MacKenzie wrote:
> >>
> >>  I just wish the web services picture was a bit clearer and in focus.
> >Matt,
> >
> >What aspects of the "Web Services picture" might you be referring to?
> >The current and emerging standards/specifications? The overlaps
> >between/within consortiums? Interoperability or lack thereof between
> >various specifications/standards? Interoperability or lack thereof
> >between various Web Services-based application frameworks?
> >
> >The list goes on...
> >
> >Joe
> >
> >>  I'm sure there is something interesting to see there, its just
> >>too > dark and out of focus.
> >>
> >>  :-)
> >>
> >>  On Mar 25, 2004, at 8:16 PM, David RR Webber wrote:
> >>
> >>       Joe,
> >>
> >>       The most irreverent answer!
> >>
> >>       #20 - everyone is talking about web services
> >>       #19 - there are more people thinking about web services than
doing them
> >>       #18 - web service articles are everywhere in magazines - but
noone is
> >>       quite certain about the accuracy of the details in them
> >>       #17 - proven benefits of web services are hard to show but if
> >>people see
> >>       you doing web services they will try and mingle in with your
group
> >>       #16 - everyones trying to figure out how they can cash-in on
> >>web services
> >>       #15 - web services sound and look young, tight and amazing in
> >>the glossy
> >>       magazines
> >>       #14 - web services can change their look rapidly and without
warning
> >>       #13 - everyone has their own ideas about how they'd like to
> >>do web services
> >>       #12 - its hard to describe to your neighbours what you are
> >>doing with web
> >>       services
> >>       #11 - people who are not really doing web services will say
> >>they are anyway
> >>       #10 - a lot of rich people and PR machines are behind web
services
> >>       #9 - web services looks like its just life on a beach but in
> >>reality its
> >>       much more
> >>       confusing and complex than that
> >>       #8 - the long term consequences of doing web services could
> >>result in some
> >>       unforeseen side effects from things that might be revelled later
that
> >>       took
> >>       place earlier that you did not know about
> >>       #7 - getting a legal agreement before doing web services is
> >>really tough,
> >>       most people are doing it anyway while they have the chance and
> >>       hoping it will all be alright later
> >>       #6 - web services are all over the internet and in junk mail
> >>       #5 - web services are young, make a lot of noise, and some of
> >>the things
> >>       they do are crude and shocking
> >>       #4 - doing things with web services probably means alot of late
nights
> >>       and having to fix up messy loose ends before someone notices
> >>       #3 - there is no standard way of doing web services but
> >>people will take
> >>       anything that web services are doing and then sell them for as
much
> >>       as they can get
> >>       #2 - web services are trying to become things that they are
> >>not, but would
> >>       like to be somehow
> >>       #1 - web services can do absolutely anything you want them to
> >>do - and in
> >>       ways you never even thought possible.
> >>
> >>       To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from
> >>the roster of the OASIS TC), go to
>
>>http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/regrep/members/leave_workgrou
p.php.
> >  >
> >>  ___________________________
> >>  Matthew MacKenzie
> >>  Senior Architect
> >>  IDBU Server Solutions
> >>  Adobe Systems Canada Inc.
> >>  http://www.adobe.com/products/server/
> >>  matt@adobe.com
> >>  +1 (506) 871.5409
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from the
> >roster of the OASIS TC), go to
>
>http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/regrep/members/leave_workgroup
.php.
>
>
> -- 
> Rex Brooks
> GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison, Berkeley, CA, 94702 USA, Earth
> W3Address: http://www.starbourne.com
> Email: rexb@starbourne.com
> Tel: 510-849-2309
> Fax: By Request
>
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>
>