RE: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin

["Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>]

Thanks John - that clears it up. ebMS v3, not ebXML v3. I now retract my
original observation. :)

Kind Regards,
Joseph Chiusano
Booz Allen Hamilton
Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: john hardin [mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:01 AM
> To: Matthew MacKenzie
> Cc: Chiusano Joseph; David Webber (XML); Monica J. Martin; 
> Duane Nickull; dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; 
> jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com; tony.scott@gm.com; 
> john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org; 
> ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com; 
> golsen@contivo.com; John Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net; 
> tdean@criticaltech.net; ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark
> Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin
> 
> OK, I am now learning to be very specific. I am referring to ebMS v3.
> 
> Matthew MacKenzie wrote:
> > John,
> > 
> > Where did this vision come from?  I didn't get the memo.  
> Certainly, 
> > the ebMS team has communicated and moved our work in that 
> direction, 
> > but I don't see other ebStandards explicitly moving toward 
> that vision.
> > 
> > -matt
> > 
> > Chiusano Joseph wrote:
> > 
> >> Sounds great - where can I get more OASIS-official public 
> information 
> >> on this? And also on ebXML v2? This is highly useful and valuable 
> >> information.
> >>
> >> Kind Regards,
> >> Joseph Chiusano
> >> Booz Allen Hamilton
> >> Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World
> >>
> >>
> >>  
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: john hardin [mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com] Sent: 
> >>> Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:30 AM
> >>> To: David Webber (XML)
> >>> Cc: Chiusano Joseph; Monica J. Martin; Duane Nickull; 
> >>> dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com; 
> >>> tony.scott@gm.com; john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org; 
> >>> ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com; 
> golsen@contivo.com; John 
> >>> Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net; tdean@criticaltech.net; 
> >>> ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark
> >>> Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin
> >>>
> >>> That would be the list, thanks David.
> >>> Joe, the ebMS v3 direction has been (and I think still is) to 
> >>> encompass the WS-I Basic Profile, the WS-Security and other WS* 
> >>> specs, thereby moving towards convergence. A curious 
> point is that 
> >>> we don't see that kind of outreach yet from the other side....
> >>>
> >>> john
> >>>
> >>> David Webber (XML) wrote:
> >>>   
> >>>
> >>>> Joe,
> >>>>
> >>>> That is exactly what we are qualifiying here in ebSOA!!!
> >>>>
> >>>> We have BPSS V2, ebMS V3, Registey V3 - but no updated 
> architecture 
> >>>> that documents the new capabilities that all this enables.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks, DW
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
> >>>> To: "john hardin" <john@sanghainteractive.com>; "Monica 
> J. Martin"
> >>>> <Monica.Martin@Sun.COM>; "David RR Webber"     
> >>>
> >>> <david@drrw.info>; "Duane   
> >>>
> >>>> Nickull" <dnickull@adobe.com>; <dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com>; 
> >>>> <jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com>; <tony.scott@gm.com>;
> >>>> <john.l.jackson@gm.com>; <psnack@aiag.org>;     
> >>>
> >>> <ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com>;   
> >>>
> >>>> <ronschuldt@msn.com>; <golsen@contivo.com>; "John Casillas" 
> >>>> <johnc@mbproject.org>; <mjyader@comcast.net>; 
> >>>> <tdean@criticaltech.net>; <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>;     
> >>>
> >>> "James Bryce Clark"
> >>>   
> >>>
> >>>> <jamie.clark@oasis-open.org>
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 7:29 AM
> >>>> Subject: RE: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> <Quote>
> >>>> a) work towards interop between the WS and eb camps (ebXML v3 is 
> >>>> closing that gap rapidly - thanks Dale!) </Quote>
> >>>>
> >>>> Can you please explain what "ebXML v3" is?
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> Joe
> >>>>
> >>>> Joseph Chiusano
> >>>> Booz Allen Hamilton
> >>>> Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>     
> >>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: john hardin [mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com]
> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 3:58 AM
> >>>>> To: Monica J. Martin; David RR Webber; Duane Nickull; 
> >>>>> dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com; 
> >>>>> tony.scott@gm.com; john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org;
> >>>>> ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com;       
> >>>
> >>> golsen@contivo.com; John   
> >>>
> >>>>> Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net; tdean@criticaltech.net; 
> >>>>> ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks Monica and thanks to all for the warm welcome.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have copied a number of folks on this, because I 
> would like to 
> >>>>> enlist their assistance for the ebSOA editing 
> activities or       
> >>>
> >>> just for   
> >>>
> >>>>> ideas as we move forward. Also Jamie and Dale asked me about 
> >>>>> addressing the ebXML-jc group. I had a good 
> conversation with Jamie
> >>>>> the other night, and got some direction from both him and       
> >>>
> >>> from Duane.   
> >>>
> >>>>> I would very much like to address the ebXML-jc, and get a 
> >>>>> braindump how the two groups need to dovetail. I'll 
> plan on being 
> >>>>> on the call next Wed if allowed.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My primary vision for the ebSOA group is to move forward       
> >>>
> >>> with the work   
> >>>
> >>>>> from the charter (pattern catalog) and act as a facilitator 
> >>>>> towards
> >>>>
> >>>>     
> >>>>
> >>>>> interoperability among the upcoming business process       
> >>>
> >>> frameworks (WS*,   
> >>>
> >>>>> ebXML and SemWeb are three that are working to gain 
> dominance). The 
> >>>>> request-response model is a very simplistic view that 
> isn't       
> >>>
> >>> currently   
> >>>
> >>>>> mapping well onto the true complexity that large 
> industries have 
> >>>>> developed in their shared business processes. For 
> example,       
> >>>
> >>> no one will   
> >>>
> >>>>> argue today that inventory visibility for the automotive       
> >>>
> >>> industry is a   
> >>>
> >>>>> request-response model between two partners. Healthcare 
> is another 
> >>>>> area that is very complex, and requires multiple       
> >>>
> >>> interactions between   
> >>>
> >>>>> large numbers of process participants to complete the 
> information 
> >>>>> exchange, with forks and decisions during the execution.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The other reality is that process participants require constant 
> >>>>> realtime feeds of information from many points in the       
> >>>
> >>> process, which   
> >>>
> >>>>> are owned and offered by various companies of various 
> sizes and IT 
> >>>>> capabilities.
> >>>>> This spells out, to me at least, the need for a network 
> operating 
> >>>>> framework, where processes run in an "app fabric"
> >>>>> that is dependable and very open. Then we can layer event 
> >>>>> causation techniques and other things like shared 
> industry process 
> >>>>> B.A.M. on top. The network REALLY IS the computer....
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To accomplish this kind of integration, I believe that 
> we need to:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> a) work towards interop between the WS and eb camps 
> (ebXML v3 is 
> >>>>> closing that gap rapidly - thanks Dale!)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> b) gather and document, then publish and evangelize, 
> real world use 
> >>>>> cases that prove SOA principles using ebXML and WS and       
> >>>
> >>> shine a light   
> >>>
> >>>>> on successful implementations
> >>>>>
> >>>>> c) include both WS* and ebXML patterns, along with SemWeb and 
> >>>>> agent patterns (no rocks thrown, please - the 
> SemWeb/Agent stuff 
> >>>>> is the long-term target)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> d) work with WS-I and the specs to ensure that we have 
> consistent 
> >>>>> direction towards convergence
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My belief is that the entire IT industry is poised on the       
> >>>
> >>> verge of a   
> >>>
> >>>>> major break in what I think is so far a stagnation. The       
> >>>
> >>> potential of   
> >>>
> >>>>> the internet is clear - and everyone is aware that it's       
> >>>
> >>> potential is   
> >>>
> >>>>> more than just human readable web pages. We all feel it,       
> >>>
> >>> business has   
> >>>
> >>>>> been preparing (somewhat) for it, and the engineers all       
> >>>
> >>> want to build   
> >>>
> >>>>> it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> However, this level of information integration won't 
> happen unless:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> a) the path to implementation of standards based 
> messaging between 
> >>>>> partner, or producer/consumer, applications, is very clear
> >>>>>
> >>>>> b) all players involved in complex processes can participate
> >>>>>
> >>>>> c) the integration effort doesn't involve such a long, 
> drawn out 
> >>>>> mapping effort everytime (this kills progress on the 
> entire       
> >>>
> >>> movement)
> >>>   
> >>>
> >>>>> The industry will continue to stall until we solve some 
> of these 
> >>>>> problems. I would like to help by completing the 
> patterns and the
> >>>>> catalog of patterns, and publish the use cases to 
> describe       
> >>>
> >>> it. There   
> >>>
> >>>>> also needs to be a major outreach effort to all industry       
> >>>
> >>> groups that   
> >>>
> >>>>> are building shared business processes (which by the way, look 
> >>>>> much more complex than simple request-response models).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That's it, I guess....
> >>>>>
> >>>>> John
> >>>>> 313.930.5323
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Monica J. Martin wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>       
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> John,
> >>>>>> On a related point (to ebSOA that is), previously Matt
> >>>>>>         
> >>>>>
> >>>>> MacKenzie was
> >>>>>
> >>>>>       
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> the ebSOA representative to the ebXML-jc.  Perhaps you
> >>>>>>         
> >>>>>
> >>>>> could provide
> >>>>>
> >>>>>       
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> some insight into your overall vision of the ebSOA TC 
> based on its 
> >>>>>> original charter. I've asked Jamie Clark to give an 
> update         
> >>>
> >>> on ebSOA   
> >>>
> >>>>>> and SOA TC efforts. In the past, it was anticipated that
> >>>>>>         
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ebSOA would
> >>>>>
> >>>>>       
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> assist in defining the next generation architecture 
> for         
> >>>
> >>> ebXML. Your   
> >>>
> >>>>>> thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>         
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> ~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>> john c hardin
> >>>>> sanghainteractive.com
> >>>>> 313.930.5323 cell
> >>>>> mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world 
> in       
> >>>
> >>> the image   
> >>>
> >>>>> of a global village."
> >>>>>
> >>>>>    Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>       
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>     
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> ~~~~~~~~~
> >>> john c hardin
> >>> sanghainteractive.com
> >>> 313.930.5323 cell
> >>> mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com
> >>>
> >>> "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world 
> in the image 
> >>> of a global village."
> >>>
> >>>     Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>   
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~
> john c hardin
> sanghainteractive.com
> 313.930.5323 cell
> mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com
> 
> "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in 
> the image of a global village."
> 
>      Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962
> 
> 
>