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Subject: RE: [ebxml-msg] FW: [ebxml-msg-comment] Public Comment

Here are some of my reactions to this. Any TC reply should be discussed
in our meeting IMO, so I just have sent it to our TC. I included Farrukh
to check on one remark concerning the registry. I intended this to be
impartial and to indicate at least some of the tradeoffs. Maybe other TC
folks can add some. Dale 

-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Wenzel [mailto:pete@seebeyond.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 1:02 PM
To: ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: [ebxml-msg] FW: [ebxml-msg-comment] Public Comment

FYI.  Is everyone subscribed to the comment list?  Does this
require followup?


a. Drummond states to choose AS2 now and move towards ebMS or SOAP later
as ebMS is still in early adoption whilst AS2 is more mature (how's
about for registry?).  Is that a still valid claim today?

Dale> AS2 does not use a registry. AS2 has been in play since before the
turn of the century, and ebMS is a 21st century phenomenon. AS2 is
widely used for EDI and other business data transfer; ebMS is earlier in
the adoption phase.

b. Drummond states that both standards can be used to transfer any type
of data, but JMT says that AS2 is heavily based on EDI style payloads
and mechanisms 

Dale> AS2 uses MIME and CMS and S/MIME to provide security for business
data, whether XML, EDI, or data of other MIME media types. The
specification states that it is for structured business data but the
mechanism would work for arbitrary data. Specific implementations
conforming to the AS2 specification might also have special kinds of
support for EDI processing and checking but that is not required by the

(I couldn't find any specifics on what this means?)... is that a special
case understanding I need to have?

Dale> I hope the above clarifies the situation.

c. Drummond also stated that ebMS is only starting in production and
garnered attention from vertical and MNCs whilst AS2 adoption has been
growing exponentially with high adoption in Retail and CPG (esp thru UCC
& Wal-Mart).  Is that a current status?

Dale> There is an ebXML adoption white paper that we can reference here.
AS 2 is still used widely and its use is even growing but in general,
more and more data is flowing between companies over the internet,
though perhaps not so dramatically as spam

2. Technical Architecture: In the area of implementation architecture, I
think I have no problem on the end-end components.  

a. I have some questions on whether a dual-protocol (AS2 & ebMS)
registry has been something anyone has done before? 

Dale> I am not certain what this means. The ebMS registry can be used to
store ebXML information concerning business processes (BPSS instances)
as well as profiles for messaging (CPPs and CPA templates). In the CPPA
group, an editor's draft shows how a CPP could be used to support AS2,
but it is not released. So an ebMS registry may eventually support
profiles for AS2 if they emerge. If the question was, can a Registry be
accessed using AS2, I think the answer at the moment is "no" [Including
Farrukh on the list for confirmation on this.]

b. And whether there are any particular "traps" I should be aware of...

Dale> ?

c. I couldn't, technically, see any component that the AS2
implementation that isn't duplicable (I only need a 1-way mapping?) on
ebMS whether wrapper or payload structure.  It looks like AS2 has a few
choices that are made at implementation time, but that can equally be
mapped to ebMS.  Is there something I'm missing?

Dale> AS2 does not have any active support to link the message to a
business process (ebMS has concepts like Service, Action, Role) or to
tie communications into "threads" (ebMS has "CPAID", ConversationId, and
RefToMessageID that provide this support). In general AS2 is a more
RESTful use of the HTTP transfer protocol than is ebMS which builds on
SOAP-- if that is important to anyone. Whether these are shortcomings
depends on whether you want to tie your messages into business processes
and "conversations" and monitor them as such. If not, AS2 will do the
job of securely moving data with a signed acknowledgement of its
receipt. ebMS also uses XMLDsig which is a considerably more flexible
approach to digital signatures than that found in AS2. [Whether you need
that flexibility is another quite different question.]

 I could equally bind the ebMS implementation to HTTP/HTTPS like AS2 to
simplify connectivity choices if needed.  The only thing was "Data
Compression" which was highlighted in Drummond, I'm not sure if that's
an ebMS issue?  

Dale> ebMS 2.0 does not specify a way to do compression but AS2
implementations all tend to implement the same compression scheme. That
does make a difference in bandwidth utilization because business data is
very compressible.

d. I think the "tricky" issue would be in the various supplier and
retailer IDs/accounts across the different protocols... any thoughts on
this welcomed.

Dale> That is handled in ebXML via the CPPA specifications. CPPA is
beginning to see wider deployment and sometimes is stored in registries.
You are right that setting up and managing the 10,000 accounts is a big
part of the headache.

Well those are the things that crossed my mind when I was thinking thru
this, am opened to other suggestions for sure!

My thanks for anyone who read this far!  I look forward to any exchange,
responses or feedback...

Daneel Pang        
daneel_p@yahoo.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Two err is human.  Three? Challenged!
Eventually, everything will be there...
I need this yesterday.

----- End forwarded message -----

Pete Wenzel <pete@seebeyond.com>
Senior Architect, SeeBeyond
Standards & Product Strategy
+1-626-471-6311 (US-Pacific)

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