Re: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting process - one disabilities concern

["Simon Bain" <sibain@tendotzero.com>]

I agree. Which is why I mention it here.

This is something that IO have heard in the last hour on the radio
and if it does go ahead, then hopefully all that is stopped
is the "All Postal Ballot" ie one where no other mechanism is
allowed.

All the best
Simon
-- 
Simon Bain
TENdotZERO
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<quote who="David Webber \(XML\)">
> Simon,
>
> That would be a great shame.  Hopefully not.
>
> I would hope that local intervention would work instead.
> That is obviously what law enforcement and other
> services are there for.
>
> Clearly any trusted process is only as good as the
> supporting services and vigilance applied to it.
> The two work in tandem, one securing, the other
> detecting and remediating.
>
> I would expect that lobby groups such as blind
> and disabled groups will press for retaining postal
> ballots.  The need is to enhance the process whereby
> people who can get postal ballots to exclude those at
> risk or are using it to exploit it - rather than having
> genuine reasons for not attending a polling station.
>
> Human nature - sigh! ; -)
>
> DW
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Simon Bain" <sibain@tendotzero.com>
> To: "David Webber (XML)" <david@drrw.info>
> Cc: "Paul Spencer" <paul.spencer@boynings.co.uk>;
> <charbel.aoun@accenture.com>; <election-services@lists.oasis-open.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting process - one
> disabilities concern
>
>
>> It is nice to see agreement :-)
>>
>> David we have talked about the postal ballots
>> just a point to keep in mind. There is a strong
>> possibility that before the UK next election
>> (May the 5th I am told by the BBC) That all
>> postal ballot elections will be outlawed and
>> also postal ballots themselves may well be stopped
>> because of a few problems that we had over here.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Simon
>> --
>> Simon Bain
>> TENdotZERO
>> ----------
>> Tel:    0845 056 3377
>>         44 1234 359090
>> Mobile: 44 (0)7793 769 846
>>
>> <quote who="David Webber \(XML\)">
>> > Paul,
>> >
>> > And this is why I think the work on a common trusted process model
>> > is so crucial.  Once we have that we have a reference point on which
>> > to attached the localized methods and variations.
>> >
>> > Thanks, DW
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Paul Spencer" <paul.spencer@boynings.co.uk>
>> > To: <charbel.aoun@accenture.com>
>> > Cc: <election-services@lists.oasis-open.org>
>> > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:20 PM
>> > Subject: RE: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting process -
>> one
>> > disabilities concern
>> >
>> >
>> >> I think we are in violent agreement here :-)
>> >>
>> >> Paul
>> >>
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: charbel.aoun@accenture.com
>> [mailto:charbel.aoun@accenture.com]
>> >> > Sent: 21 February 2005 16:59
>> >> > To: paul.spencer@boynings.co.uk; sibain@tendotzero.com
>> >> > Cc: election-services@lists.oasis-open.org
>> >> > Subject: RE: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting process
>> -
>> >> one
>> >> > disabilities concern
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Absolutely we can not change at will and this is not what I meant
>> to
>> >> > say. I agree with you that we need to follow whatever rules of
>> change
>> >> we
>> >> > will agree or adopt. I just wanted to say irrelevant of how we
>> >> implement
>> >> > change we are still far from stability in EML...Beside EML UK
>> version
>> >> is
>> >> > progressing but the International is still a concept far from being
>> >> > table or even fixed....I think what the Uk been doing will have to
>> be
>> >> > replicated and when we speak EML we have to specify which EML we
>> are
>> >> > talking about. Do you agree? What is said about the UK version can
> not
>> >> > be said about the embryo international version.
>> >> > Cheers
>> >> >
>> >> > Charbel Aoun
>> >> > Accenture eDemocracy Services
>> >> > Director of Operations and Technology - International
>> >> > 105 Ladbroke Grove
>> >> > London, W11 1PG
>> >> > United Kingdom
>> >> > M +44 794 925 2143
>> >> > T  +44 207 616 8414
>> >> > Octel 43/ 40363
>> >> > email: charbel.aoun@accenture.com
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: Paul Spencer [mailto:paul.spencer@boynings.co.uk]
>> >> > Sent: 21 February 2005 16:12
>> >> > To: Aoun, Charbel; sibain@tendotzero.com
>> >> > Cc: election-services@lists.oasis-open.org
>> >> > Subject: RE: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting process
>> -
>> >> one
>> >> > disabilities concern
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Hi Charbel,
>> >> >
>> >> > I agree that the standard needs to change to reflect points found
>> >> during
>> >> > implementation. Several changes were made as a result of the 2002
>> and
>> >> > 2003 experiences, and more as a result of recent implementations
>> for
>> >> > registration systems. However, I think we are beyond the stage of
>> >> being
>> >> > able to change the standard at will. It could change as a result of
>> >> > David's initiative if it looks like becoming a standard. It could
>> >> change
>> >> > as a result of future planned implementations. But not as a result
>> of
>> >> a
>> >> > "wish" unless it has some real chance of implementation.
>> >> >
>> >> > It is not that the standard is frozen, just gradually upping the
>> >> barrier
>> >> > on what causes a change as more implementations get put in place.
>> In
>> >> the
>> >> > meantime, the extensibility of the core language can be exploited.
>> >> >
>> >> > Regards
>> >> >
>> >> > Paul
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > > From: charbel.aoun@accenture.com
> [mailto:charbel.aoun@accenture.com]
>> >> > > Sent: 21 February 2005 12:59
>> >> > > To: sibain@tendotzero.com; paul.spencer@boynings.co.uk
>> >> > > Cc: election-services@lists.oasis-open.org
>> >> > > Subject: RE: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting
> process -
>> >> > > one disabilities concern
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > In a natural evolution of EML we should expect and I believe it
>> is
>> >> > > normal to have an evolving EML. Apart from the few suppliers that
>> >> > > implemented EML in 2003 there is no previous experience or real
>> >> > > implementation we can refer to. With that in mind and with the
>> fact
>> >> > > that EML is still changing (though less an less) we can not talk
>> >> "yet"
>> >> >
>> >> > > about stability. Stability will be achieved once we have across
>> the
>> >> > > board an EML compliance and intergation among the vendors. After
>> >> which
>> >> >
>> >> > > we can talk stability. Till than expect that while the
>> legislation
>> >> may
>> >> >
>> >> > > be changing to accommodate modernization and while the users are
>> >> > > discovering what they need and can do from this new electronic
>> >> format,
>> >> >
>> >> > > EML in the meantime will keep on changing. For those who played
> with
>> >> > > EML in 2003 and I am one of them, experience showed us what is
>> >> agreed
>> >> > > on in this committee does not necessarily aply on the ground or
>> >> > > provide a practical solution. Cheers
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Charbel Aoun
>> >> > > Accenture eDemocracy Services
>> >> > > Director of Operations and Technology - International
>> >> > > 105 Ladbroke Grove
>> >> > > London, W11 1PG
>> >> > > United Kingdom
>> >> > > M +44 794 925 2143
>> >> > > T  +44 207 616 8414
>> >> > > Octel 43/ 40363
>> >> > > email: charbel.aoun@accenture.com
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > > From: Simon Bain [mailto:sibain@tendotzero.com]
>> >> > > Sent: 21 February 2005 09:14
>> >> > > To: Paul Spencer
>> >> > > Cc: eml
>> >> > > Subject: RE: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting
> process -
>> >> > > one disabilities concern
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Hi.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I am one of those which does implement EML. I am also of the view
>> >> and
>> >> > > was very much of this oppinion during the development of the code
> in
>> >> > > the 2003 local elections that standards should not change
>> >> continually,
>> >> >
>> >> > > as this gives people reasons to not use it and/or continual
> software
>> >> > > updates which customers then get annoyed with.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > However all standards should be extensible. This does 2 things
>> >> > > 1) Allows users to input their own tags. (Can be dangerous and
>> not
>> >> > > allow for open cross border use)
>> >> > > 2) Allows the standards body to define sub schemas which then can
> be
>> >> > > taken into the main schema if required by the using authority.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > What a standard should not become is static, which I know you are
>> >> not
>> >> > > suggesting. A standard should also not be closed to new thoughts
> and
>> >> > > suggestions, even after it has been approved and announced. Again
>> >> > > something I know that you are not suggesting.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > So in my oppinion there should be a stable almost non changing
>> >> > > standard with enough extensibility placed in it to allow other
>> >> smaller
>> >> >
>> >> > > more specific schemas to be defined by the standards body and
>> then
>> >> > > adopted by users. These would plug n to the main schema, making
>> it
>> >> > > extensible and controllable.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > This would then allow for the additions of items after due
>> >> > > consideration and thought to be added in a sub schema. For ideas
> put
>> >> > > over not only by David but also by others as they start to use
>> the
>> >> > > schema. The standard still remains under the control of the
>> >> standards
>> >> > > body but allows for a much easier adoption and sharing ability,
>> and
>> >> > > also allow it to grow and prosper. After all in 98 at the SGML
>> >> > > conference in Paris this is what most users and vendors were
>> >> screaming
>> >> >
>> >> > > for in the new XML syntax. Not to have a fixed DTD one which was
> not
>> >> > > extensible and one that could not move with the rest of the
>> World.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Cheers from a very cold Bedford
>> >> > > Simon
>> >> > > --
>> >> > > Simon Bain
>> >> > > TENdotZERO
>> >> > > ----------
>> >> > > Tel:    0845 056 3377
>> >> > >         44 1234 359090
>> >> > > Mobile: 44 (0)7793 769 846
>> >> > >
>> >> > > <quote who="Paul Spencer">
>> >> > > > Simon,
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > The basic point is that people are currently implementing EML,
> and
>> >> > > > won't do so if the specification is changing continually. So it
> is
>> >> > > > more that we should consider changes as part of an improvement
>> >> cycle
>> >> >
>> >> > > > over some specified time period. If David is looking at
>> defining
>> >> and
>> >> >
>> >> > > > agreeing an electoral process, that will take some time
>> (perhaps
>> >> > > > 6-12 months within OASIS,
>> >> > > but
>> >> > > > considerably longer to get any nation to agree to adopt it) and
>> >> EML
>> >> > > could
>> >> > > > then be adjusted to fit.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > At least, that is my understanding and opinion. Perhaps John
>> >> Borras
>> >> > > > has a different view.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Regards
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Paul
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> > > >> From: Simon Bain [mailto:sibain@tendotzero.com]
>> >> > > >> Sent: 20 February 2005 07:57
>> >> > > >> To: Paul Spencer
>> >> > > >> Cc: "David Webber " <david@drrw.info>,
>> >> > > >> election-services@lists.oasis-open.org"@tendotzero.com
>> >> > > >> Subject: RE: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting
>> >> process
>> >> > > >> - one disabilities concern
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> Paul hi.
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> What do you mean by "stability".
>> >> > > >> Do you mean that you do not want any updates to the EML spec
>> or
>> >> do
>> >> > > >> you mean that you mean that any future updates should be
>> pllaced
>> >> on
>> >> >
>> >> > > >> hold for a given period of time?
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> All the best
>> >> > > >> Simon
>> >> > > >> --
>> >> > > >> Simon Bain
>> >> > > >> TENdotZERO
>> >> > > >> ----------
>> >> > > >> Tel:    0845 056 3377
>> >> > > >>         44 1234 359090
>> >> > > >> Mobile: 44 (0)7793 769 846
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> <quote who="Paul Spencer">
>> >> > > >> > v4 has been released. We are looking for some stability at
>> the
>> >> > > >> moment, but
>> >> > > >> > that does not mean that we don't want to continue to move
>> >> > > >> > forwards.
>> >> > > >> John
>> >> > > >> > Borras chairs the TC, and this would be a subject for the
>> >> meeting
>> >> >
>> >> > > >> > he
>> >> > > >> is
>> >> > > >> > suggesting.
>> >> > > >> >
>> >> > > >> > Regards
>> >> > > >> >
>> >> > > >> > Paul
>> >> > > >> >
>> >> > > >> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> > > >> >> From: David Webber (XML) [mailto:david@drrw.info]
>> >> > > >> >> Sent: 19 February 2005 16:31
>> >> > > >> >> To: Paul Spencer; election-services@lists.oasis-open.org
>> >> > > >> >> Subject: Re: [election-services] Defining a trusted voting
>> >> > > >> process - one
>> >> > > >> >> disabilities concern
>> >> > > >> >>
>> >> > > >> >>
>> >> > > >> >> Paul,
>> >> > > >> >>
>> >> > > >> >> Just reviewed the EML docs and schemas and sent some public
>> >> > > >> >> comments to the OASIS comments list.  Some of this can be
>> >> > > >> >> addressed now - but other matters are going to need more
> work.
>> >> > > >> >> Are we on a timetable to release EML 4.0 here - or do we
>> have
>> >> > > >> >> another release cycle here to use up?  Otherwise a 4.5
> release
>> >> > > >> >> to catch these other matters clearly is another option.
>> >> > > >> >>
>> >> > > >> >> Thanks, DW
>> >> > > >> >>
>> >> > > >> >> > David,
>> >> > > >> >> >
>> >> > > >> >> > Have you read the EML documents? This is a start on a
> viable
>> >> > > >> process.
>> >> > > >> >> At
>> >> > > >> >> the
>> >> > > >> >> > time, we felt we needed a reference process to help us
>> >> define
>> >> > > >> >> the schemas.
>> >> > > >> >> > We also felt that this process would vary a lot
>> >> > > >> >> internationally. However,
>> >> > > >> >> > there are certain key points (mainly to do with trust)
>> that
>> >> > > >> >> > can be standardised on an international basis.
>> >> > > >> >> >
>> >> > > >> >> > I would love to see the OASIS E&VSTC get involved in
>> this,
>> >> but
>> >> > > >> >> I wonder if
>> >> > > >> >> > OASIS is the right place for this. On the other hand, it
>> >> could
>> >> > > >> >> be the only
>> >> > > >> >> > place that would take a truly international (rather than
>> >> > > >> >> US-centric) view.
>> >> > > >> >> > Also, from a personal view, having spent a considerable
> time
>> >> > > >> helping
>> >> > > >> >> get
>> >> > > >> >> EML
>> >> > > >> >> > to the stage it is, I would like any new initiative to
>> use
>> >> it.
>> >> > > >> >> >
>> >> > > >> >>
>> >> > > >> >>
>> >> > > >> >>
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>> >> > > >> >>
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