RE: [oasis-member-discuss] OASIS namespace documents for URN namespaces

[Paul Denning <pauld@mitre.org>]

http://del.icio.us/mitrepauld/xmlns+tag

Above are a few bookmarks to W3C info about namespace docs that may help.

Paul

At 06:46 PM 2007-06-19, Peter F Brown wrote:
>Christopher:
>That is indeed clearer, but my concern is still 
>with the idea of a “namespace document”: not 
>sure what such an artefact is intended to be or 
>to do (no Confucius please David) or indeed how 
>an RDDL document fits such a bill, particularly 
>as it doesn’t seem to have any schema or prescribed model behind it.
>
>But I can see also that we may be talking at 
>cross purposes on different but related issues…
>
>Regards,
>
>Peter
>
>From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@us.ibm.com]
>Sent: 19 June 2007 13:32
>To: Peter F Brown
>Cc: oasis-member-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org; robin.cover@oasis-open.org
>Subject: RE: [oasis-member-discuss] OASIS 
>namespace documents for URN namespaces
>
>
>Possibly, my response was poorly communicated. 
>What I was trying to convey is that because a namespace
>is an abstraction and not a thing/artefact, that 
>a namespace __document__, something that fully describes
>the namespace, is an effective manifestation of 
>the virtual abstract resource (namesapce) that  is identified by
>the namespace URI.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Christopher Ferris
>STSM, Software Group Standards Strategy
>email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
>blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/chrisferris
>phone: +1 508 234 2986
>
>"Peter F Brown" <peter@pensive.eu> wrote on 06/18/2007 03:21:09 PM:
>
> > RDDL does not help identify; it helps describe and in a highly
> > context specific way
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@us.ibm.com]
> > Sent: 18 June 2007 17:42
> > To: Peter F Brown
> > Cc: oasis-member-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org; robin.cover@oasis-open.org
> > Subject: RE: [oasis-member-discuss] OASIS namespace documents for
> > URN namespaces
> >
> >
> > Peter, you wrote:
> >
> > > I would argue, always have argued, that you shouldn't find anything
> > > at the end of a URI that purports to be an identifier except, well,
> > > something that helps identify the artefact being referenced.
> >
> > If a RDDL isn't someting that helps identify the artefact
> > identified, when that artefact is a namespace,
> > then I don't know what it is.
> >
> > A namespace is an abstraction. It has an identifier. A namespace is
> > NOT a schema document. I might
> > have multiple 'schema' that each are legitimate means of validating
> > a document that includes
> > elements and attributes for a given namespace (e.g. XML Schema, RNG,
> > Schematron, DTD, etc.)
> > They may be isomorphic or complimentary in nature.
> >
> > Having a namespace document (RDDL) available as the resource
> > retrieved when you dereference
> > the namespace URI helps 'identify the artefact' that is referenced
> > by that URI. In the case of the
> > namespace documents that have been designed for OASIS specs, the
> > informative value is increased by
> > virtue of the fact that the specifications which define the
> > semantics of the namespace components
> > are also linked and the namespace versioning policy is provided.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Christopher Ferris
> > STSM, Software Group Standards Strategy
> > email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
> > blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/chrisferris
> > phone: +1 508 234 2986
> >
> > "Peter F Brown" <peter@pensive.eu> wrote on 06/18/2007 10:46:11 AM:
> >
> > > Of course it all depends on what you want to use the identifier for.
> > > I would argue, always have argued, that you shouldn't find anything
> > > at the end of a URI that purports to be an identifier except, well,
> > > something that helps identify the artefact being referenced. An RDDL
> > > document is not an identifier - it is a resource descriptor; it is
> > > intended to provide information about the identified artifact but, I
> > > would argue, is not the only thing that could be relevant at such an
> > > end point. As such there *should* be a distinction between the
> > > namespace urn and any mechanism to dereference it in a particular
> > > context for a particular purpose - whether OASIS provides it os not,
> > > is another question.
> > >
> > > The Topic Map community understands this intimately in their
> > > distinction between a "subject identifier" and a "subject indicator"
> > > and didn't get lost down the W3C blind alley of confusing labels and
> > > resources à la RDF... sorry, shouldn't have dragged that up ;-)
> > >
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > ==================
> > > From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@us.ibm.com]
> > > Sent: 18 June 2007 16:03
> > > To: Peter F Brown
> > > Cc: oasis-member-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org; robin.cover@oasis-open.org
> > > Subject: RE: [oasis-member-discuss] OASIS namespace documents for
> > > URN namespaces
> > >
> > >
> > > The OASIS TAB has published guidelines for namespace URIs (amongst
> > > other subjects related to
> > > metadata) here:
> > >         http://docs.oasis-open.
> > > org/specGuidelines/namingGuidelines/resourceNaming.html
> > >
> > > These guidelines include recommendation that namespace URIs be HTTP
> > > scheme URIs and that there
> > > be a published RDDL document at the namespace URI location. URNs are
> > > permitted for use, but HTTP
> > > scheme URIs are preferred/recommended since they can be resolved
> > > without additional machinery. Note
> > > that OASIS hs no plans to implement such a resolution mechanism:
> > >         http://docs.oasis-open.
> > > org/specGuidelines/namingGuidelines/resourceNamingCommentaryV07.
> > > html#urnResolution
> > >
> > > An example of these guidelines in action can be found with the WS-RX
> > > TC's WS-RM namespace URI:
> > >         http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/wsrm/200702
> > >
> > > Frankly, I don't personally see any material benefit to use of a URN
> > > scheme namespace. I suspect that
> > > some believe that by using a URN, they have created a 'permanent
> > > identifier'. Well, frankly, there is no
> > > reason why an HTTP scheme URI cannot be 'permanent'. It isn't as if
> > > OASIS is going to drop off the face of
> > > the earth anytime soon.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Christopher Ferris
> > > STSM, Software Group Standards Strategy
> > > email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
> > > blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/chrisferris
> > > phone: +1 508 234 2986
> > >
> > > "Peter F Brown" <peter@pensive.eu> wrote on 06/18/2007 09:43:24 AM:
> > >
> > > > Paul:
> > > > I think the objective is laudable but I don't see the point of the
> > > > "http://www.oasis-open.org/namespace?ns="; 
> part of the statement. Surely,
> > > > if some application wants to do something with the "pure" (and on its
> > > > own non-deferenceable) urn, then surely 
> it will ba equipped to make that
> > > > call using http get or whatever.
> > > >
> > > > By effectively tying a namespace to a derefereceable network endpoint
> > > > and to specific and prescribed dereferencing mechanism, is there not a
> > > > danger that you:
> > > > - either limit what can be legitimately 
> found at the network endpoint to
> > > > an RDDL file only, cutting out other possible uses of the namespace;
> > > > - or creating false expectations and possible architectural problems
> > > > when unpredictable results come from 
> finding something other than a RDDL
> > > > document at the end of the pipe.
> > > >
> > > > On the other hand, I'd be in favour of a mechanism by which RDDL
> > > > documents, when available, can be accessed using a prescribed OASIS
> > > > managed URL to which you would tack the namespace urn.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Peter
> > > >
> > > > -------------
> > > > Peter F Brown
> > > > Chair, CEN eGovernment Focus Group
> > > > Founder, Pensive.eu
> > > > Co-Editor, OASIS SOA Reference Model
> > > > Lecturer at XML Summer School
> > > > ---
> > > > Personal:
> > > > +43 676 610 0250
> > > > http://public.xdi.org/=Peter.Brown
> > > > www.XMLbyStealth.net
> > > > www.xmlsummerschool.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Paul Denning [mailto:pauld@mitre.org]
> > > > Sent: 30 May 2007 18:45
> > > > To: oasis-member-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > Subject: [oasis-member-discuss] OASIS namespace documents for URN
> > > > namespaces
> > > >
> > > > Some OASIS TC's use an HTTP URI when they define an XML
> > > > Namespace.  Some TC's have started using RDDL as a namespace document
> > > > when these namespace URI's are dereferenced using HTTP GET.
> > > >
> > > > Other OASIS TC's use URN's to identify their XML Namespace.
> > > >
> > > > I suggest that OASIS provide a mechanism to resolve a namespace
> > > > document (RDDL or other) using HTTP and passing in the namespace URN
> > > > in a query parameter.
> > > >
> > > > For example,
> > > >
> > > > 
> http://www.oasis-open.org/namespace?ns=urn:oasis:names:tc:emergency:EDXL
> > > > :DE:1.0
> > > >
> > > > would return a RDDL document associated with the EDXL-DE namespace.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > >