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Subject: Re: [office] renewed proposal for new position and space attributesfor the list level
Thomas Zander wrote: > Hmm, reading your email it seems I was being quite unclear; all your answers > indicate my points were not getting across. > > On Monday 05 March 2007 14:55, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann - Software Engineer - > Sun Microsystems wrote: >>> I understand. I just don't agree with it. >>> Its based on the incorrect assumption that the layout of a list should be >>> decoupled from a paragraph style. >> This is correct assumption - a paragraph style isn't needed to define >> the layout of a list. >> Please refer to the ODF specification part, where it is said that a list >> style has to be coupled with a paragraph style. > > I was talking about the typographical layout. Meaning the positioning of the > list item relative to the page and paragraph. > Not sure what 'layout' you are referring to. I'm talking about the same layout. Thus again, where in the ODF specification it is said that you need a paragraph style to define the layout of a list item? > >>> Its also based on the incorrect assumption that a list-style should >>> describe more then one list. There is no need, and from a users >>> perspective I've found that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense either. >> I didn't say something about specifying more than one list with one list >> style. >> I'm talking about specifying with one list style the list level styles >> of the first 10 list levels. > > Ok, I'll try again; > A list-style does not have to describe more then 1 list-level. You can use > multiple list-styles for 1 list that has several levels. > Having 1 list-style describe 10 list-levels does not make a whole lot of sense > either. > >>> And I think you just proved my point; a liststyle with a random number of >>> list-levels being defined (you have to admit 10 is a pretty randomly >>> chosen number) brings a lot of inconsistencies. >> I strongly - very very strongly - disagree. > > Clear. > However; this point you brought up a couple of mails ago: > > "my proposal you will got the possibility to specify the complete > list item layout for 10 list levels. For each list level, you can > specify the indent attributes in *one* style - namely the list style. > If the indent attributes can't be specified in the list style, *ten* > additional paragraph styles are needed to fulfill this use case." > I brought this up, because you stated to use for each list level a combination of one list style and one paragraph styles. I don't want to use paragraph styles to define a list. But, I want to be free to specify a list containing list items on list level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 with only *one* list style. > One list style uses the indent options of upto 10 paragraph styles. > You correctly point out that this is a bit odd. The reason this is odd, you > claim, is that the list-style should not only include 10 levels, it should > also include the indent for those 10 levels. > > Now; take a step back and see that if you think of a list-style as being a > style that describes one, and no more, list-level. Then you can again combine > that with a paragraph-style and get the full set of indented possibilities. > > Sometimes you are so much into the way things have been done for ages that you > miss the obvious inconsistencies in the way thats been done. > In other words; > if you think its a problem that you have 10 paragraph-styles to go with 1 list > style; try simplifying instead of making it more complex. Try specifying > only one 1 list-level in that list-style. And suddenly your problem goes > away. > >>> I have no problem with OOo working with that combination of list-levels, >>> but I believe that if you have a problem with the inconsistency that this >>> gives you should fix it in OOo, not in ODF. The inconsistency here is >>> that while list-styles can hold 10 levels, paragraph-styles can't. >> About what inconsistencies in OpenOffice.org you're talking about? I >> didn't know any. > > See my quote from you above. > You stated you think its a bad thing that you need to change 10 paragraph > styles for that 1 list-style. > This mapping of 10-to-1 is inconsistent. Try bringing it back to 1-to-1. This only a problem, when I followed you proposal to have no indent attributes at the list level definition of a list style. That isn't a problem of OpenOffice.org - it's a problem of your proposed stuff. > >>> What about making using the existing behavior of style-inheritance to >>> alleviate your concerns? >> What kind of style inheritance you want to introduce for list styles? > > I was not talking about list-style inheritance. > I was talking about paragraph-style inheritance. > You, again, worried about the 10-to-1 mapping. What about making those 10 > paragraph styles inherit smartly. If you want, you can make that invisible to > the user. Then you can alter just 1 paragraph style, and all paragraph-styles > inheriting from it will follow. This would get your problem fixed. > > Hope that clears some things up. No. Regards, Oliver.
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