Re: [office] renewed proposal for new position and space attributesfor the list level

[Oliver-Rainer Wittmann - Software Engineer - Sun Microsystems<Oliver-Rainer.Wittmann@Sun.COM>]

Thomas Zander wrote:
> Hmm, reading your email it seems I was being quite unclear; all your answers 
> indicate my points were not getting across.
> 
> On Monday 05 March 2007 14:55, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann - Software Engineer - 
> Sun Microsystems wrote:
>>> I understand. I just don't agree with it.
>>> Its based on the incorrect assumption that the layout of a list should be
>>> decoupled from a paragraph style.
>> This is correct assumption - a paragraph style isn't needed to define
>> the layout of a list.
>> Please refer to the ODF specification part, where it is said that a list
>> style has to be coupled with a paragraph style.
> 
> I was talking about the typographical layout. Meaning the positioning of the 
> list item relative to the page and paragraph.
> Not sure what 'layout' you are referring to.

I'm talking about the same layout.
Thus again, where in the ODF specification it is said that you need a 
paragraph style to define the layout of a list item?

> 
>>> Its also based on the incorrect assumption that a list-style should
>>> describe more then one list.  There is no need, and from a users
>>> perspective I've found that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.
>> I didn't say something about specifying more than one list with one list
>> style.
>> I'm talking about specifying with one list style the list level styles
>> of the first 10 list levels.
> 
> Ok, I'll try again;
> A list-style does not have to describe more then 1 list-level.  You can use 
> multiple list-styles for 1 list that has several levels.
> Having 1 list-style describe 10 list-levels does not make a whole lot of sense 
> either.
> 
>>> And I think you just proved my point; a liststyle with a random number of
>>> list-levels being defined (you have to admit 10 is a pretty randomly
>>> chosen number) brings a lot of inconsistencies.
>> I strongly - very very strongly - disagree.
> 
> Clear.
> However; this point you brought up a couple of mails ago:
> 
>   "my proposal you will got the possibility to specify the complete 
>   list item layout for 10 list levels. For each list level, you can 
>   specify the indent attributes in *one* style - namely the list style.
>   If the indent attributes can't be specified in the list style, *ten*
>   additional paragraph styles are needed to fulfill this use case."
> 
I brought this up, because you stated to use for each list level a 
combination of one list style and one paragraph styles. I don't want to 
use paragraph styles to define a list.

But, I want to be free to specify a list containing list items on list 
level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 with only *one* list style.

> One list style uses the indent options of upto 10 paragraph styles.
> You correctly point out that this is a bit odd.  The reason this is odd, you 
> claim, is that the list-style should not only include 10 levels, it should 
> also include the indent for those 10 levels.
> 
> Now; take a step back and see that if you think of a list-style as being a 
> style that describes one, and no more, list-level. Then you can again combine 
> that with a paragraph-style and get the full set of indented possibilities.
> 
> Sometimes you are so much into the way things have been done for ages that you 
> miss the obvious inconsistencies in the way thats been done.
> In other words;
> if you think its a problem that you have 10 paragraph-styles to go with 1 list 
> style; try simplifying instead of making it more complex.  Try specifying 
> only one 1 list-level in that list-style.  And suddenly your problem goes 
> away.
> 
>>> I have no problem with OOo working with that combination of list-levels,
>>> but I believe that if you have a problem with the inconsistency that this
>>> gives you should fix it in OOo, not in ODF.  The inconsistency here is
>>> that while list-styles can hold 10 levels, paragraph-styles can't.
>> About what inconsistencies in OpenOffice.org you're talking about? I
>> didn't know any.
> 
> See my quote from you above.
> You stated you think its a bad thing that you need to change 10 paragraph 
> styles for that 1 list-style.
> This mapping of 10-to-1 is inconsistent. Try bringing it back to 1-to-1.

This only a problem, when I followed you proposal to have no indent 
attributes at the list level definition of a list style.
That isn't a problem of OpenOffice.org - it's a problem of your proposed 
stuff.
> 
>>> What about making using the existing behavior of style-inheritance to
>>> alleviate your concerns?
>> What kind of style inheritance you want to introduce for list styles?
> 
> I was not talking about list-style inheritance.
> I was talking about paragraph-style inheritance.
> You, again, worried about the 10-to-1 mapping.  What about making those 10 
> paragraph styles inherit smartly. If you want, you can make that invisible to 
> the user. Then you can alter just 1 paragraph style, and all paragraph-styles 
> inheriting from it will follow. This would get your problem fixed.
> 
> Hope that clears some things up.

No.


Regards, Oliver.