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Subject: RE: [office] Conformance Clause proposal, Version 8

And another +1.  If we asked a non-TC member what "host language" means, it's hard for me to imagine that they'd come up with anything even remotely close to the concepts being discussed here.  It's the worst option on the table, in my opinion.

With that, I'll +1 to Dennis's final paragraph as well.

- Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: Duane Nickull [mailto:dnickull@adobe.com] 
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 6:08 PM
To: 'dennis.hamilton@acm.org'; 'Michael.Brauer@Sun.COM'
Cc: 'office@lists.oasis-open.org'
Subject: Re: [office] Conformance Clause proposal, Version 8

+1 to Dennis's 1st paragraph.

----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis E. Hamilton <dennis.hamilton@acm.org>
To: Michael.Brauer@Sun.COM <Michael.Brauer@Sun.COM>
Cc: 'OpenDocument Mailing List' <office@lists.oasis-open.org>
Sent: Fri Feb 06 17:47:43 2009
Subject: RE: [office] Conformance Clause proposal, Version 8

I do want to disagree about the particular specialized term applying to the
ODF conformance target that provides for the presence of foreign e-a-v.

I searched around for the use of "host language document" and discovered
that it is used essentially the opposite as we use it.  Documented
extensions that use the core of another format with additions of their own
claim "host language document type conformance."  In addition, the
conformance level (for SMIL, SVG, and XHTML Modularization) is accompanied
by rules for how such extensions are to be identified and integrated with
the base format.  It appears that these are never meant to be processable as
documents in the host language (although the host language may be an
acceptable subset of consumable documents).  These seem to be about explicit
provisions for making new format types having the conformant part of ODF
documents as a base.  We do nothing to specifically provide for that (e.g.,
requiring different mime types, requiring different schemas, identifying a
core that must be preserved, etc).

In our case, we don't describe anything about what the foreign
elements-attributes-values are, other than they do not employ a namespace
established for OpenDocument.  Instead of prescribing how a new format is
established and differentiated, we specify a way to treat
unsupported/unrecognized foreign f-a-v as if they are not present, with the
residue being conformant.  These documents are presumably identified as ODF
documents (e.g., using the standard MIME types) and having the root-required

This ODF case seems different enough in spirit, purpose and detail to have a
different name.  We should avoid the term in case we ever do want to provide
for extension and host document format conformance in the manner typified by
the XHTML Modularization specification and others that appeal to that model.

 - Dennis

PS: I am really done now.  I have nothing new to offer beyond this
disagreement on appropriation of the term for our situation.


[1] SMIL Host Language Conformance.  Section 2.4.1 in Synchronized
Multimedia Integration Language(SMIL 2.0) - [Second Edition], W3C
Recommendation 07 January 2005,
<http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/REC-SMIL2-20050107/>, Available at
SSMILHostLanguageConformance>.  I suspect that the incorporation of SMIL
into ODF Document Format is not via the host-language conformance model.

[2] XHTML Host Language Document Type Conformance.  Section 3.1 in XHTML
Modularization 1.1, W3C Recommendation 8 October 2008
<http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-xhtml-modularization-20081008/>.  Available

[3] RDFa Test Suite.  Editor's Draft, 2007-06-29, available at
<http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/>.  This document refers to a
"host language" for embedding RDFa, but the approved RDFa specification
appears to have no such terminology, nor does the RDF specification.
Likewise, XFORMS is designed to be embedded in host languages, but the term
is used informally, although included in the glossary [4].

[4] XForms 1.0 (Third Edition), W3C Recommendation 29 October 2007
<http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/REC-xforms-20071029/>.  In this specification,
the definition of Host Language is as "an XML vocabulary, such as XHTML,
into which XForms is embedded."  It is interesting that, under Conformance,
"A host language may introduce additional conformance requirements" and
there are some interesting specifications on what all XForms Processors must
fully support and what an XForms Full Processor must support.  There are
also interesting conditions on Conforming XForms Documents, including the
proviso that "a host language may introduce additional conformance
requirements," but there are some impressive basic conformance requirements
without having more.  

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org] 
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 16:16
To: 'Michael.Brauer@Sun.COM'
Cc: 'OpenDocument Mailing List'
Subject: RE: [office] Conformance Clause proposal, Version 8

I would really like a simple adjective.  I understand the concept, I just
don't think it is usefully applied as a name for a conformance level.  I
also don't think it means anything until defined specifically as a
conformance level for ODF, so it is no better than "loose," just different.
I'm note even sure how to use "host language conformant" in a sentence.
I'll go review your use of it and see how it reads.

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