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Subject: Re: [oiic-formation-discuss] Level of detail needed in a TC Charter
On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 6:48 AM, Matthew Reingold <matthewreingold@gmail.com> wrote: > I have no objection to how it is worded.This doesn't mean I am feigning > neutrality in saying that. I think we're getting on that level of more of a > political issue than a logistics one. That is precisely correct. There are some political issues that have to be settled before this group can be moved forward. If no one is in charge as Rob says, then we've got to decide how we are going to make decisions before we can make any decisions. I work for UL, and even there we have > to write things in a specific format for our standards as well. The battle is not over the format to use for the charter. That is a straw man argument. The battle is over what words go into the the format. And the threshold requirement is that what goes in the format must be lawful. Standards formations groups are not an appropriate forum for big vendors to have their way. Under the Sherman Act, the guiding light is whether the language is pro-competitive. If the language serves to limit anti-competitive abuse, then it ougjt to go in. Plenty of > people get confused on a minute by minute basis, let alone daily probably > thousands of people a day. The wording of the expected audience is not as > important as us having discussed who the audience is intended to be, which > was in its own thread. It seems rather straightforward when we come the > wording was released. > Under antitrust law, the "audience" is the range of consumers whose needs will be fulfilled by the market created by the standard to be developed. Everything else is irrelevant to this category. Focus first on market requirements that will be fulfilled and we can get to consensus on who the audience is pretty fast. This drafting of the charter before assessing what market requirements will be fulfilled is a lousy way to write a charter. We haven't even achieved consensus yet on whether there will be a deliverable that will actually achieve ODF interorperability. If we don't have that as an agreed goal, the criminal penalty exposure is up to 10 years in federal prison and/or a $1 million fine per participant. The civil liability exposure is treble the damages of all co-conspirators' acts, with each co-conspirator liable for the entire amount individually. Voluntary standards organizations and their participants who get out of line are regulated as Sherman Act section 1 conspiracies in restraint of trade by U.S. courts. > Dave, irregardless of what we think, this is one Charter within all of > Oasis. We are important in our own way, but we are structured off the basis > off other TC's. Wrong. The fact that other people have violated the law and got away with it is no defense. Very few of the OASIS TC's I've looked at have legally defensible charters. They were drafted by non-lawyers who guessed about what all the big words meant and looked to what other people had done rather than to the law for definitions. .We're building off the basis of > other TC's, just like new standards have their structure built off other > standards that work well. Wrong again. So far we're building off what Rob Weir wants. But he has a big company that will pay any damages awarded against him. The rest of us need to be more cautious, expressly because we have 800-pound gorillas who created the interop mess to begin with walking amongst us. We're not trying to reinvent the wheel here, I'd > think. We'd be better concerned with whether we have a wheel at all than whether our wheel looks like all those square wheels Rob wants us to draw guidance from. It'd be another 3-4 weeks of that 90 days that would be lost minimum > trying to say "what do we want to do" without an actual goal already set in > mind. We have no goal already set in mind. We have folks who want to to make interoperability happen, we have big vendors who want to stall it some more using this proposed TC as smoke and mirrors, and we have a whole bunch of folks who have no idea what the governing law or actual interoperability state of the ODF specification is. If you want a compact overview of the law governing interoperability, I have a draft synthesis of it in the form of a candidate successor to the various definitions of an "open format" floating around that were not drafted by lawyers. <http://www.universal-interop-council.org/specification>. I caution that this is the first public draft of a project with a long way to go. I cannot say with confidence yet that there are no substantive errors, particularly in the area of accessibility. But most of it is quite solid. > > I am not Rob, but if you notice in other threads we've been trying to define > this. It seems like both, actually. So its neither yours nor Michaels > separately, it is both together. Wrong again. You should not be trying to define it. You should instead be concerned about what the legal definition is. And Michael Brauer is a decidedly poor source of information about interoperability. I worked closely with him (actually in spite of him) on the ODF TC, and Michael Brauer's more than obvious mission is to make sure that no one else can interoperate with his company's apps. Michael Brauer is the guy who made ODF the interop mess that it is. From long experience, anything Michael Brauer says about interoperability should be presumed to be an obfuscation designed to thwart interoperability. I have not seen the man do anything but make the interoperability mess worse. It is a fundamental error to look to the big vendors for a solution to the interop problem in the office productivity software sector. They *are* the problem and Microsoft is not the only 800-pound gorilla that plays vendor lock-in games. Best regards, Paul -- Universal Interoperability Council <http:www.universal-interop-council.org>
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