Re: [sca-bindings] [Issue 2] Proposal version 3: How to implement SCAcallbacks using SOAP

[Mike Edwards <mike_edwards@uk.ibm.com>]

Tom,

I think I can live with the "optional
yet normative" idea as long as it does not prevent
people from coming up with other schemes
for using web services, should they so wish.

As you say, we can give this optional
conformance point a label and implementations are
then free to claim conformance to that
label should they so desire.  Once this is done, then
the Annex containing the material can
contain as many individual conformance statements
as are useful, which are all effectively
subject to the overarching label attached to the Annex.

This will allow conformance tests to
be created for the Annex as well, in the same way that
they will be created for the mandatory
parts of the specification.


Yours,  Mike.

Strategist - Emerging Technologies, SCA & SDO.
Co Chair OASIS SCA Assembly TC.
IBM Hursley Park, Mail Point 146, Winchester, SO21 2JN, Great Britain.
Phone & FAX: +44-1962-818014    Mobile: +44-7802-467431  
Email:  mike_edwards@uk.ibm.com

From:	Tom Rutt <tom@coastin.com>
To:	Mike Edwards/UK/IBM@IBMGB
Cc:	OASIS Bindings <sca-bindings@lists.oasis-open.org>
Date:	04/11/2008 16:40
Subject:	Re: [sca-bindings] [Issue 2] Proposal version 3: How to implement SCA callbacks using SOAP

---

Mike Edwards wrote:
>
> Tom,
>
> The question worth asking here is how you can draw up this material
to 
> be optional and yet normative.
Put the text from Anish in an annex, and have that annex be subject to
conformance claims.

Only if an implementation claims to conform to this as an optional 
conformance point will it be tested
that it can handle use of the new RelatesTo value.   

Other conformance points could be added in the future, but there are no
other ones defined yet that
require a registered URL value in order to operate.

Tom
>
> How do you bound the optionality?  There might be quite a number
of 
> ways in which you could create a
> binding based on web services functionality that implements SCA 
> callback capability.  We don't want to
> outlaw those, while it is useful to encourage use of a straightforward
> and generally implemented set
> of capabilities such as are represented by Anish's proposal below.
>
> I suppose that an SCA runtime can claim to conform to the scheme 
> defined in Anish's proposal and what
> that would amount to is that the runtime would have to pass some set
> of conformance tests that are built
> based on that proposal.  Being normative at least allows the
test(s) 
> to be part of the overall SCA test suite,
> even if conforming to those tests is purely optional.
>
> What I am wary of doing is preventing other ways of using the web
> services specifications/standards to
> implement SCA capabilities such as callbacks.  Such alternatives
> should be possible and perfectly valid.
>
>
> Yours,  Mike.
>
> Strategist - Emerging Technologies, SCA & SDO.
> Co Chair OASIS SCA Assembly TC.
> IBM Hursley Park, Mail Point 146, Winchester, SO21 2JN, Great Britain.
> Phone & FAX: +44-1962-818014    Mobile: +44-7802-467431
 
> Email:  mike_edwards@uk.ibm.com
>
>
> From:                
 Tom Rutt <tom@coastin.com>
> To:                
 Mike Edwards/UK/IBM@IBMGB
> Cc:                
 OASIS Bindings <sca-bindings@lists.oasis-open.org>
> Date:                
 03/11/2008 20:35
> Subject:              
   Re: [sca-bindings] [Issue 2] Proposal version 3: How
to 
> implement SCA callbacks using SOAP
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Mike Edwards wrote:
> >
> > Folks,
> >
> > I believe that what we previously decided regarding these descriptions
> > of how to implement specific
> > capabilities of SCA using a given binding is that they would
form
> > non-normative examples in an
> > appendix in the relevant bindings specification.
> I cannot see how Anish's proposal for implementing SCA callbacks using
> Soap and Ws Addressing
> can work if it is only a non-normative example.
>
> The proposal includes the following text:
> "
> The wsa:RelatesTo SOAP header block MUST have the relationship type
> value of "http://docs.oasis-open.org/opencsa/sca-bindings/ws/callback"
> and the related message id is the wsa:MessageID of the message from
> which the Callback EPR was obtained.
> "
>
> This text registers a special value to use within the wsa:relatesTo
> element.   To Register this
> special value requires it to be included in a normative part of the
spec.
>
> I like Anish's proposal, and do not see another way to do it with
ws
> addresssing in use.
>
> I think a better Idea is to have the text be in a normative part of
the
> spec, but be considered an
> optional compliance point which can be asserted by an implementation,
> when sca is bound to wsdl/soap with ws addressing in this manner.
>
> Tom Rutt
> >
> > So, the idea is that a proposal like Anish's would be ONE way
of doing
> > callbacks with SCA over web
> > services (SOAP), but would not rule out other ways of doing it.
 What
> > it would show is that:
> >
> > a) there IS a way to implement the callback capability over web
services
> >
> > b) the example will encourage implementers to provide callback
in this
> > way and if so, then it would give
> > a way to improve interoperability - if both ends implement according
> > to the example, they should interoperate.
> >
> >
> > As for the @callback annotation for WSDL - the main purpose is
for SCA
> > usage (to provide the same capability
> > that we have in Java interfaces with the @callback annotation)
- but
> > of course if a WSDL with such an annotation
> > is encountered by a non-SCA web services client, that client
can
> > choose to interpret it in the way that SCA defines....
> >
> > Yours,  Mike.
> >
> > Strategist - Emerging Technologies, SCA & SDO.
> > Co Chair OASIS SCA Assembly TC.
> > IBM Hursley Park, Mail Point 146, Winchester, SO21 2JN, Great
Britain.
> > Phone & FAX: +44-1962-818014    Mobile: +44-7802-467431
 
> > Email:  mike_edwards@uk.ibm.com
> >
> >
> > From:                
 Anish Karmarkar <Anish.Karmarkar@oracle.com>
> > To:                  OASIS
Bindings <sca-bindings@lists.oasis-open.org>
> > Date:                
 29/10/2008 23:58
> > Subject:                
 Re: [sca-bindings] [Issue 2] Proposal 
> version 3: How to
> > implement SCA callbacks using SOAP
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > I forgot to mention that when this proposal is combined with
Mike's idea
> > of defining a WSDL extension to indicate the callback interface
(similar
> > to the @Callback Java annotation), what we have is a WS-Callback
> > specification (I know, yet another WS-Splat spec). Such a spec
could be
> > a stand-alone spec independent of SCA and would result in non-SCA
> > systems being able to talk to SCA services that offer bi-directional
> > interfaces.
> >
> > -Anish
> > --
> >
> > Anish Karmarkar wrote:
> > > Attached.
> > > I have converted the HTML version to Word, so that it is
easy for 
> folks
> > > to comment and make inline changes.
> > >
> > > The big change between v2 and v3 is the addition of faults.
My initial
> > > inclination was to define our own faults, but it turns out
> > WS-Addressing
> > > has some pre-defined faults which fit our purpose. So, I
have reused
> > > those faults.
> > >
> > > One thing I'm not clear on is whether the TC wishes to define
this
> > > SOAP-specific callback mechanism as *one* of the ways callbacks
can be
> > > implemented when using SOAP or *the* way callbacks are implemented
> when
> > > using SOAP. My inclination is to say *the* way, otherwise
we have to
> > > invent ways (metadata such as policySets, ws-policy assertion,
WSDL
> > > extension, Java annotation) to convey when it is required.
> > >
> > > Comments?
> > >
> > > -Anish
> > > --
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> -- 
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Tom Rutt                 email:
tom@coastin.com; trutt@us.fujitsu.com
> Tel: +1 732 801 5744          Fax: +1 732
774 5133
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-- 
----------------------------------------------------
Tom Rutt                
email: tom@coastin.com; trutt@us.fujitsu.com
Tel: +1 732 801 5744          Fax: +1 732 774
5133

---

Unless stated otherwise above:
IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598.
Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU