RE: [search-ws] queryn: A proposal for SRU to facilitate forms processing

["LeVan,Ralph" <levan@oclc.org>]

If the form had the field names as "q01.idx" for large forms, then those
servers that count of simple string sorting should be okay.

That problem can be taken care of with a note for the queryType.

Ralph

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress [mailto:rden@loc.gov]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 4:35 PM
> To: LeVan,Ralph; 'Matthew Dovey'; Hammond,Tony; 'OASIS SWS TC'
> Subject: RE: [search-ws] queryn: A proposal for SRU to facilitate
forms
> processing
> 
> Right.
> On second thought is q1.idx, etc. really orderable as a practical
matter? If
> there are more than 9 clauses it won't be sufficient to do a simple
string
> order. Is it reasonable to require the server to parse the parameter
name to
> get the integer part? Or do we need to come up with a different
scheme?
> Something like "q.[x].idx where it is the responsibility of the client
to
> ensure that [x] is lexically increasing in the order of occurrence of
the
> parameters."
> --Ray
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: LeVan,Ralph [mailto:levan@oclc.org]
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 12:13 PM
> > To: Denenberg, Ray; Matthew Dovey; Hammond,Tony; OASIS SWS TC
> > Subject: RE: [search-ws] queryn: A proposal for SRU to facilitate
forms
> > processing
> >
> > Yes.  My comment was in response to Matthew's suggestion that
instead
> > the parameter name simply be repeating "query".
> >
> > Ralph
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress [mailto:rden@loc.gov]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 12:06 PM
> > > To: LeVan,Ralph; 'Matthew Dovey'; Hammond,Tony; 'OASIS SWS TC'
> > > Subject: RE: [search-ws] queryn: A proposal for SRU to facilitate
> > forms
> > > processing
> > >
> > >
> > >   &q1.idx=index1
> > >   &q1.rel=relation1
> > >   &q1.trm=term1
> > >   &q1.bln=boolean1
> > >   &q2.idx=index2
> > >   &q2.rel=relation2
> > >   &q2.trm=term2
> > >   &q2.bln=boolean2
> > >
> > > Aren't these are sufficiently orderable?
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: LeVan,Ralph [mailto:levan@oclc.org]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 11:50 AM
> > > > To: Matthew Dovey; Hammond,Tony; Denenberg, Ray; OASIS SWS TC
> > > > Subject: RE: [search-ws] queryn: A proposal for SRU to
facilitate
> > forms
> > > > processing
> > > >
> > > > Order is not guaranteed by forms encoders.  Typically, it is the
> > > > reverse of the order in the form, but not guaranteed.  In the
> > original
> > > > Google example, order was not important.  Here it is and the
only
> > > > guarantee of order would be by picking parameter names that are
> > > > orderable.
> > > >
> > > > Ralph
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Matthew Dovey [mailto:m.dovey@jisc.ac.uk]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 11:26 AM
> > > > > To: Hammond,Tony; Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress;
LeVan,Ralph;
> > > > OASIS
> > > > > SWS TC
> > > > > Subject: RE: [search-ws] queryn: A proposal for SRU to
facilitate
> > > > forms
> > > > > processing
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, thinking on this a little - would a simpler solution
be
> > > > simply to allow
> > > > > query to be repeatable.
> > > > >
> > > > > e.g.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://server/searchRetrieve?query= title%20exact%20fish
> > > > >
> > > > > could be  also sent as
> > > > >
> > > > >
http://server/searchRetrieve?query=title&query=exact&query=fish
> > > > >
> > > > > (the server just assembles the values for query in the order
> > supplied
> > > > inserting
> > > > > whitespace).
> > > > >
> > > > > Most server-side cgi will still cope with this (some need a
> > little
> > > > effort, e.g. the
> > > > > solution for php is here:
> > > > > http://www.php.net/manual/en/reserved.variables.get.php#92439)
> > > > >
> > > > > Matthew
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Hammond, Tony [mailto:t.hammond@nature.com]
> > > > > > Sent: 15 December 2010 15:48
> > > > > > To: Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress; Matthew Dovey;
> > LeVan,Ralph;
> > > > > > OASIS SWS TC
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [search-ws] queryn: A proposal for SRU to
> > facilitate
> > > > forms
> > > > > > processing
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would have been more inclined to retain the "queryn"
> > parameter.
> > > > That way
> > > > > > one could have
> > > > > >
> > > > > >     searchRetrieve = query | queryn
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And that becomes easy to test for the searchRetrieve
operation.
> > Do
> > > > you
> > > > > > gave a parameter named query*?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The parameter "query" has the actual data by value, whereas
the
> > > > parameter
> > > > > > "queryn" is more like data by reference - the number is not
> > > > dissimilar from a
> > > > > > location - the count is used in fact to locate the
parameters
> > > > within
> > > > the
> > > > > > parameter space.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Whether one also needs to have the "queryType", I could live
> > with
> > > > that - if
> > > > > > it's really required. But I can't readily live with the
string
> > > > "fbcql". Can't it be
> > > > > > something more down to earth like "cql-lite" or "cql-simple"
or
> > > > even
> > > > "cql-
> > > > > > form", or of that ilk? Let's keep the branding "cql" up
front,
> > and
> > > > use a word
> > > > > > rather than a token. (We do have "xcql" but that is
exclusively
> > for
> > > > XML. I
> > > > > > wouldn't feel any requirement to follow the naming here.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tony
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress
[mailto:rden@loc.gov]
> > > > > > Sent: Wed 12/15/2010 3:35 PM
> > > > > > To: 'Matthew Dovey'; Hammond, Tony; 'LeVan,Ralph'; 'OASIS
SWS
> > TC'
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [search-ws] queryn: A proposal for SRU to
> > facilitate
> > > > forms
> > > > > > processing
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Suppose instead:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  - define a new query type, let's call it fbcql for now.
> > > > > >  - when queryType=fbcql, then there is no query parameter
and
> > > > instead, it is
> > > > > > a signal that these form-based parameters will occur.
> > > > > >  - so there is no need for the queryn parameter.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This approach does mean changing the protocol so that the
query
> > > > parameter
> > > > > > is not mandatory (it would be omitted in this special case)
but
> > I
> > > > am
> > > > not
> > > > > > terribly offended by such a change.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is this an acceptable compromise?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --Ray
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Matthew Dovey [mailto:m.dovey@jisc.ac.uk]
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 7:06 AM
> > > > > > > To: Hammond, Tony; Denenberg, Ray; LeVan,Ralph; OASIS SWS
> TC
> > > > > > > Subject: RE: [search-ws] queryn: A proposal for SRU to
> > facilitate
> > > > > > > forms processing
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, you have understood my proposal correctly. :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would question though whether we really need to assign
a
> > > > different
> > > > > > > > queryType as this is a strict subset of CQL.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And that's where we differ ;-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think what we can agree on is that we have a concept of
> > "query
> > > > > > > language" and "query encoding". The query language we are
> > talking
> > > > > > > about in all cases is CQL. We currently have a string
> > encoding
> > > > for
> > > > > > > CQL. We did have an XML encoding for CQL (I can't recall
if
> > we
> > > > kept it
> > > > > > > but its usefulness turned out to be limited). You are
> > proposing a
> > > > > > > form-based encoding for CQL.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > However, we only have one parameter queryType. You think
that
> > > > > > > queryType should indicate the query language but not the
> > encoding,
> > > > > > > whereas I'm quite happy with queryType indicating both the
> > query
> > > > > > > language *and* the encoding for that language.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On the other hand, I'm not too happy about the query
encoding
> > > > being
> > > > > > > determined by the presence (or absence) of an overloaded
> > > > parameter
> > > > in
> > > > > > > the request (queryn does two things - indicates the number
of
> > > > clauses
> > > > > > > *and*by its presence indicates that the query encoding is
> > form
> > > > based).
> > > > > > > I would much rather the query encoding be explicitly
> > indicated
> > by
> > > > the
> > > > > > > value of a parameter (and defaulted is the parameter is
> > omitted).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think, I'm arguing that we perhaps need to replace
> > queryType
> > > > with
> > > > > > > two
> > > > > > > parameters: queryLanguage and queryEncoding but I'm
concerned
> > > > that
> > > > is
> > > > > > > over-engineering.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Matthew
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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