Re: [xtm-wg] Nikita's comments

["Nikita Ogievetsky" <nogievet@cogx.com>]

Steve, Chris,

[Steve]
> To avoid what you call "merging" (which it isn't, really), you
> would have to give them separate roles (e.g. "oldest son", "youngest
> son").

On the contrary I was arguing against the statement that 
using members with the same <roleSpec> within an association forces
[Chris]
> implicitly merging all such member elements in an association
> into one member element

You are right, F.3.3 is dangerous.
It allows processing software to "unite" members with the same role
even if they have -id- on them and may be are
reified somewhere else in the document.

This is a very fragile moment and perhaps F.3.3 should be slightly
rephrased to reflect it.

May be this time I am paranoid 
but the whole thing with
"eldest son",
"youngest son",
"second to eldest son",
"third to eldest son",
does not make much sense.

Thanks,

Nikita.

-------------------------------------------
Nikita Ogievetsky                  Cogitech Inc
XML/XSLT/XLink/TopicMaps Consultant
nogievet@cogx.com   --   (917) 406-8734
http://www.cogx.com     Cogito Ergo XML

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Steve Pepper <pepper@ontopia.net>
To: <xtm-wg@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: [xtm-wg] Nikita's comments


> At 13:13 08/02/01 -0500, Nikita Ogievetsky wrote (in response to
> Chris):
> 
> > >From what you are saying, I assume that you believe that
> >the following:
> >
> ><association>
> >     <member>
> >         <roleSpec><topicRef xlink:href="#asserted-by"/></roleSpec>
> >         <topicRef xlink:href="#peron1"/>
> >     </member>
> >     <member>
> >         <roleSpec><topicRef xlink:href="#asserted-by"/></roleSpec>
> >         <topicRef xlink:href="#peron2"/>
> >     </member>
> >     <member>
> >         <roleSpec><topicRef xlink:href="#fact"/></roleSpec>
> >         <topicRef xlink:href="#fact1"/>
> >     </member>
> ></association>
> >
> >is equivalent to:
> >
> ><association>
> >     <member>
> >         <roleSpec><topicRef xlink:href="#asserted-by"/></roleSpec>
> >         <topicRef xlink:href="#peron1"/>
> >         <topicRef xlink:href="#peron2"/>
> >     </member>
> >     <member>
> >         <roleSpec><topicRef xlink:href="#fact"/></roleSpec>
> >         <topicRef xlink:href="#fact1"/>
> >     </member>
> ></association>
> >
> >Well ... I very doubt it.
> >Merging rules for association members were never discussed
> >and I do not thing that anything of this sort should be taking place.
> 
>  From Annex F:
> 
>    F.3.3 Equivalence of Multiple <member>s of the Same Role
> 
>    An association containing multiple members, M1 and M2
>    of the same role R may be equivalently defined by an association
>    containing a single member M3 of role R whose set of
>    players is the union of the sets of players of role R in members
>    M1 and M2.
> 
> This *was* discussed, several times. And the editors of 13250
> pronounced on it at least once.
> 
> >I may want to have those members separately.
> >For example I may want to reify member role of #person1
> >and supply some metadata for it.
> >If I merge member roles as you suggest I am losing this capability.
> >Why should they be merged? Even "implicitly"?
> >
> >If a family have to sons, who said that these sones
> >are one and the same entity in the family?
> 
> If you model them that way, then they are.
> 
> To avoid what you call "merging" (which it isn't, really), you
> would have to give them separate roles (e.g. "oldest son", "youngest
> son").
> 
> Steve
> 
> --
> Steve Pepper, Chief Technology Officer <pepper@ontopia.net>
> Convenor, ISO/IEC JTC1/SC34/WG3  Editor, XTM (XML Topic Maps)
> Ontopia AS, Maridalsveien 99B, N-0461 Oslo, Norway.
> http://www.ontopia.net/  phone: +47-22805465  GSM: +47-90827246
> 
> 



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