RE: [ws-rx] RE: Issue 125: Protocol precondition requires knowledge of policies

["Marc Goodner" <mgoodner@microsoft.com>]

The protocol preconditions don't say anything about WSDL? Huh, they
don't say anything about WS-Policy or the RM Assertion either. So in
that respect I would see the examples you gave of what would be
expressed in WSDL as being policies in place at the endpoint as well.

To your other point, if there is a policy in place at the endpoint that
has no bearing on the proper formulation of the message it doesn't
really matter. The ones that matter are the ones that effect the message
format.

Finally how can you count on faults to tell you how to formulate your
message when they don't have to be returned to you? 

Marc Goodner
Technical Diplomat
Microsoft Corporation
Tel: (425) 703-1903
Blog: http://spaces.msn.com/mrgoodner/ 

-----Original Message-----
From: Anish Karmarkar [mailto:Anish.Karmarkar@oracle.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 5:39 PM
To: Marc Goodner
Cc: Paul Fremantle; wsrx
Subject: Re: [ws-rx] RE: Issue 125: Protocol precondition requires
knowledge of policies

I tend to agree with Paul. I don't see a reason to state this as a
protocol precondition.

1) There are several things that the RMS needs to know for successful
reliable transmission of message. For example, the RMS has to know what
kind of binding/protocols the RMD supports. If the RMD uses SOAP/TCP
only and the RMS does not support this the RMS cannot communicate with
it and have a successful reliable transmission of messages. But we do
not include the knowledge of WSDL as a precondition.

2) The statement says:
"The RM Source MUST have knowledge of the destination's policies, if
any, and the RM Source MUST be capable of formulating messages that
adhere to this policy."

Lets say that the RMD has a policy about logging message, does the RMS
have to know this as a precondition for the protocol? I would say no.

-Anish
--

Marc Goodner wrote:
> How is removing this text helpful? I don't think relying on faults is 
> better than satisfying this precondition.
> 
> I disagree with your justification of why the text is problematic.
> Whether or not RM is on seems like a policy of the endpoint one would 
> want to be aware of. It does not matter whether that knowledge comes 
> through WS-RMPolicy or out of band knowledge of what is in place at 
> the endpoint. One would also think you would want to know other 
> policies in place at the endpoint to properly formulate you messages, 
> again whether or not this was through WS-Policy or out of band 
> knowledge. So I don't see this text as limited to just the RM
assertion.
> 
> Marc Goodner
> Technical Diplomat
> Microsoft Corporation
> Tel: (425) 703-1903
> Blog: http://spaces.msn.com/mrgoodner/
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Fremantle [mailto:paul@wso2.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 4:06 PM
> To: Marc Goodner
> Cc: wsrx
> Subject: Re: Issue 125: Protocol precondition requires knowledge of 
> policies
> 
> Marc
> 
>  The protocol clearly defines faults that are used if you have the 
> wrong choice of RM enabled or not.
> If the RMS tries to initiate a Sequence with an endpoint that doesn't 
> support it there will be a fault (either CSRefused or a generic
fault).
> If the RMS doesn't create a Sequence then we have the RMRequired
fault.
> 
> It is possible to read this text in a good light. But I don't think 
> its very clear. I'd be very happy to see some better words in there, 
> but I would prefer no words to the ones there currently.
> 
> Paul
> 
> Marc Goodner wrote:
> 
>>Paul, I don't understand on why you want this text removed. Don't you 
>>need to know that the destination supports RM? Are you not planning on
> 
> 
>>learning this at a minimum out of band before sending CS messages to
> 
> it?
> 
>>Or are you planning on using faults to determine if a destination 
>>supports RM or not?
>>
>>The last is about the only way that I could see this not being a valid
> 
> 
>>precondition.
>>
>>Marc Goodner
>>Technical Diplomat
>>Microsoft Corporation
>>Tel: (425) 703-1903
>>Blog: http://spaces.msn.com/mrgoodner/
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Paul Fremantle [mailto:paul@wso2.com]
>>Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 3:30 AM
>>To: wsrx
>>Subject: [ws-rx] NEW ISSUE: Protocol precondition requires knowledge 
>>of policies
>>
>>Title: The protocol preconditions require knowledge of policies
>>
>>Description: From WD13 section 2.2 and lines 177-178 it says:
>>
>>The RM Source MUST have knowledge of the destination's policies, if 
>>any, and the RM Source MUST be capable of formulating messages that 
>>adhere to this policy.
>>
>>Justification: Since the only assertion that we make currently is that
> 
> 
>>RM is on, this seems extraneous. Furthermore the spec is more useful 
>>if it does not presuppose knowledge of policy to make it work.
>>
>>Proposal: Delete lines 177 and 178.
>>
>>Paul
>>
>>  
> 
>