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Subject: Re: [xacml] Any kind of policies in a request

Hi Anil

OK, now I understand your position. But it is opposed to the existing
SAMLv2 profile of XACML, since ii) should by Yes to fit the existing
profile, and iv) should be yes if the phrase "a general purpose" is 
removed. In fact the only change I am proposing is to make iv) general 
purpose as opposed to its current XACML specific purpose.

I attach a Word document (sorry for that) which provides a modified 
schema showing the change I propose highlighted in yellow, which is the 
addition of one line, namely

<xs:element ref="xs:any" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="unbounded"/>

This allows a policy in any language to be sent.

I have also changed the name of the type to reflect that it is now 
general purpose, and also so that it does not clash with the existing 
type definition.



Anil Saldhana wrote:
> Hi David,
> On 11/24/2009 04:15 AM, David Chadwick wrote:
>> Hi Anil
>> I dont understand precisely what your objection is. Please could you 
>> be more specific by answering the following questions
>> i) there should be a general mechanism for querying any remote PDP for 
>> an authz response Y/N
> Y
>> ii) there is a need to dynamically push a policy to a remote PDP along 
>> with an authz decision request Y/N
> N
>> iii) the v2 XACML request/response context can be used as a general 
>> purpose mechanism for making an authz query to any ABAC PDP Y/N
> Y
>> iv) the SAMLv2 profile of XACML can be used as a general purpose 
>> mechanism for pushing a policy to a remote PDP along with making an 
>> authz query Y/N
> N
> (The policy update has to be outside the normal request mechanism.  If 
> your use case is to make authz decisions based on a new replacement for 
> a policy that exists just for the duration of the authz query, then that 
> is interesting but a new use case which may require new constructs).
>> regards
>> David
>> Anil Saldhana wrote:
>>> David,
>>>   I have a hard time really agreeing to your proposal of interlinking 
>>> requests and xacml policies.
>>> The XACML policy aspect has to be out of band wrt the 
>>> request-response mechanism.
>>> Regards,
>>> Anil
>>> On 11/23/2009 06:12 AM, Erik Rissanen wrote:
>>>> David,
>>>> I have been thinking more about this.
>>>> I think that an extension point to plug in any kind of policy format 
>>>> does not belong in the XACML core schema, and thus not in the 
>>>> <Request>. The XACML schema is for defining the XACML language, and 
>>>> we would lose some of the benefits of standardization by allowing 
>>>> any content in it.
>>>> However, SAML defined in the past a protocol for AuthZ 
>>>> query/response. It is my understanding, and please correct me if I 
>>>> am wrong, that there was an agreement between the SAML and XACML TCs 
>>>> that the XACML request schema would supersede the SAML AuthZ 
>>>> formats, and SAML dropped their own. The original SAML protocol was 
>>>> ambiguous regarding the policy language.
>>>> If we think of the XACML SAML profile to carry the legacy of the 
>>>> original SAML AuthZ protocol, than I guess it would make sense to 
>>>> support other policy languages since the original protocol was not 
>>>> XACML specific.
>>>> What do the rest of the TC see as the scope of the XACML SAML 
>>>> profile? Is it just about supporting XACML, or does it have a wider 
>>>> scope?
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Erik
>>>> David Chadwick wrote:
>>>>> Subsequent to the minutes
>>>>> Rich.Levinson wrote:
>>>>>> Proposed schema change for policies and discussion from
>>>>>>  David Chadwick and response from Erik:
>>>>>>   http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xacml/200911/msg00023.html
>>>>>>    Erik: David proposed req ctx schema for ext pts xml any, where
>>>>>>     can put proprietary policy lang things; doesn't make sense
>>>>>>     to std on any policies in fmt; suggest using saml/xacml
>>>>>>     mechanism
>>>>>>    Rich: sees it as potentially disruptive, effectively allowing
>>>>>>     elements as children of PolicySet
>>>>>>    Bill: proprietary elements don't make sense; need further info
>>>>>>     to be considered;
>>>>>>     defer topic until more info from David addressing concerns
>>>>>>      in email and minutes
>>>>> It makes sense because we cannot assume that every PDP talks the 
>>>>> XACML policy language. However, it is possible to make every PDP 
>>>>> talk the XACML request/response context. Once we have sticky 
>>>>> policies and obligations which we pass around a distributed system 
>>>>> we need to be able to cater for multiple policy languages. If you 
>>>>> see my presentation at W3C yesterday at
>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2009/policy-ws/slides/Chadwick.pdf
>>>>> and look at slide 5 from 11, you will see why we need to relax the 
>>>>> schema requirements on the policy element in the SAML-XACML 
>>>>> profile, otherwise we have no standard way of passing a sticky 
>>>>> policy to an AIPEP or Master PDP.
>>>>> regards
>>>>> David
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David W. Chadwick, BSc PhD
Professor of Information Systems Security
The Computing Laboratory, University of Kent, Canterbury, CT2 7NF
Skype Name: davidwchadwick
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Email: D.W.Chadwick@kent.ac.uk
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SAML Authz Decision Query.doc

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