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Subject: Re: [oiic-formation-discuss] Profiles: suggested use-cases
On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 7:02 AM, <robert_weir@us.ibm.com> wrote: Marbux wrote: >> I would rather see Rob respond to the technical merits of what I >> proposed rather than just asking for a check signed in blank. >> Until we get agreement that interop goes on the list of deliverables >> and Rob starts talking about the technical merits of interop >> proposals, I don't think we're going to make any progress. . >> > > Paul, I fail to see any technical content to your proposal. They appear to > be merely defining the problem away without doing anything to actually help > implementors improve interoperability. In particular, using CDRF's > conformance language would merely add requirements that certain forms of > document exchange be have certain interoperability guarantees. That's a straw man argument for avoiding the technical discussion, Rob. I did not propose that just the CDRF conformance requirements be specified in this TC's charter. I made it quite clear that I was after the whole shebang other than the rules for forming compound document formats. You mischaracterize what I propose and then shoot only at your own mischaractization. You are ducking rather than addressing the technical merits of my proposal. But merely > adding a requirement that says "Thou shalt be interoperable" does not in > itself accomplish anything. Sorry you misunderstood. I said I didn't think we could get consensus before we agree that "interop" is not on the list of deliverables. What I meant by that is that you have either shot down or evaded every proposal I've read for any specific workplan to achieve interop and likewise for any more specificity in the mission statement beyond improving interoperability of ODF implementations. I object strenuously to the lack of specificity in your proposed language. E.g., you said you want "profiles" but you have not even defined the term to my knowledge. I want to know what you mean by "profiles." Do you want your vision of profiles to clearly and unambiguously specify the conformity requirements essential to achieve the interoperability? If you do, great, we've agreed on something. But if your vision of profiles doesn't include the interop conformity requirements, we are not in agreement and we have something we need to talk about. Another example: If improving the interoperability of ODF implementations means to you that we are to create a set of profiles that specifies the interop conformity requirements as above and submits them for adoption as OASIS standards, then you and I have agreed on something. If on the other hand, what that means to you is an ongoing Interop Camp hackfest not directed to development of a standard, then I have very big objections and we need to talk about them. I you do not specify more clearly what you are after, then all I have to go on is the history of IBM's prior behavior in regard to ODF interop. That is not a trust or confidence-builder. IBM tries to kill the messengers who file ODF interop bug reports rather than dealing with the bugs. That is what my very intense and personal involvement with IBM and ODF has taught me. Your resistance to defining the goal of this TC in unambiguous terms is an absolute barrier to consensus: 1. Tsze-lu said, 'The ruler of Wei has been waiting for you, in order with you to administer the government. What will you consider the first thing to be done?' 2. The Master replied, 'What is necessary is to rectify names.' 3. 'So, indeed!' said Tsze-lu. 'You are wide of the mark! Why must there be such rectification?' 4. The Master said, 'How uncultivated you are, Yu! A superior man, in regard to what he does not know, shows a cautious reserve. 5. 'If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success. 6. 'When affairs cannot be carried on to success, proprieties and music will not flourish. When proprieties and music do not flourish, punishments will not be properly awarded. When punishments are not properly awarded, the people do not know how to move hand or foot. 7. 'Therefore a superior man considers it necessary that the names he uses may be spoken appropriately, and also that what he speaks may be carried out appropriately. What the superior man requires, is just that in his words there may be nothing incorrect.' Be a superior man, Rob. any identifiable goal of actually achieving standards-based interoperability. the completion of profiles profiles interoperability or any specific goal We would still be in the exact same boat. I > think you misperceive the nature of interoperability, and the practical > problems and equally practical solutions that are needed to move us forward. Forward toward what, Rob? And what do you mean by "interoperability." Is it application-level interop or standards-based interop? > I'm looking to form an ODF IIC TC in order to develop the kinds of practical > tools needed by ODF implementors (and others) to improve conformance of ODF > documents and applications, and to improve interoperability among them. This sounds like application-level interop rather than standards-based interop. You know that there are virtually no conformance requirements as to elements and atributes not already tested by validation against the schema after all foreign elemtns and attributes are removed, that is unless you want to drop back to OASIS ODF 1.0. Is there any more to your desire for conformance testing than smoke and mirrors? Please address what it is you propose to test that is not already tested by validation against the schema after all foreign elments and attributes are removed. > Those who are interested in this task will join in this effort, and those > who are not will ignore it. I see no sense in turning this into an "us > versus them" battle. It is only "us" here. There is no "us" before there is consensus. My consensus requires at minimum that you be far more specific in the mission statement for this TC. IBM embraced and extended TTS back in the 50s and 60s. TTS was the last word processing open standard that I've worked with that had competing, fully interoperable implementations. IBM has had over four decades to achieve another open word processing standard with competing, fully interoperable implementations. There ain't no "us" before I see a sign that IBM is rowing toward ODF interop rather than away from it. You have not given me that sign. Those who participate in the > effort already want to see interoperability improvements, so let's > concentrate on that rather than the unnecessary task of convincing them that > such efforts are necessary. "Interop improvements" is neither a specific goal nor a work plan for achieving that goal. It is a mere excuse for not disclosing either a specific goal or a workplan for achieving that goal. I want both in the charter and I am not unreasonable in insisting on that. Have you never heard of Management by Objectives? Either you have a more specific objective or you ask only for my trust. You do not have my trust. Is that clear enough? > > I know you desperately want interoperability improvements. Wrong. I want a standard that fully specifies the conformity requirements essential to achieve interoperability. I want *fully* interoperable and competing implementatiions. I want vendors competing for my business who do not lock me into their apps. I am not alone. I have no interest in "interoperability improvements." It is a meaningless phrase. But at times you > remind me of a drowning swimming, grabbing and clinging to his rescuer, > risking the demise of both. I will not respond in kind but your invitation did not go unnoticed. I think we want the same things here, Paul. If we do want the same things, then we should have no difficulties in arriving at consensus. It is your refusal to identify what things you want that is my initial barrier. We > already have the major vendors involved. Trying to turn this into a stick > to be used against "big vendors" will only backfire and ensure that the > effort never occurs. Some are content with replacing a monopoly with a collusive oligopoly. I am not. Had I never achieved success in toilet-training multinational corporations, I might give your last words more weight. But I have long experience in correcting corporate abuse. All that has happened is that Microsoft is being dragged from a monopoly into an oligopoly. I care not only about the horizontal market shared by the the big vendors; I also care about the vertical markets where the proverbial two guys in a garage are denied market entry by interop barriers. Show me that IBM, Sun, and Microsoft have on their agenda interop between the small vendors' implementations and the big vendors' implementations. "Improving interoperability" tells me nothing other than the fact that there is an agenda that has not been disclosed. Best regards, Paul E. Merrell, J.D. (Marbux) -- Universal Interoperability Council <http:www.universal-interop-council.org>
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