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Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece:"Managing an XML Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
Perhaps you are correct sir!! What do others think? Duane Chiusano Joseph wrote: >Isn't the notion of a "data model" too general for our purposes? >Shouldn't we be thinking in terms of a *canonical* data model[1]? If >that is not what is needed, please give specifics as to why (i.e. I >think that "we don't need a data model" is too general a statement). > >Thanks, >Joe > >[1] http://www.eaipatterns.com/CanonicalDataModel.html > >Kind Regards, >Joseph Chiusano >Booz Allen Hamilton >Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: John Harby [mailto:jharby@gmail.com] >>Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 1:13 PM >>To: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org >>Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML >>Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" >> >>IMHO, SOA should really be defined independent of data model >>and a general definition of SOA should support any strategy >>employable by data tiers. Defining the notion of data model >>really seems out of scope to me. >> >>On 5/6/05, Chiusano Joseph <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> wrote: >> >> >>>These are very interesting thoughts - I like the term "SOA data >>>model". Can you please clarify further what the difference >>> >>> >>between a "SOA data model" >> >> >>>and a "canonical data model" would be? (since I believe "SOA data >>>model" may now be a newly coined term) >>> >>>Joe >>> >>> >>> >>>Joseph Chiusano >>> >>>Booz Allen Hamilton >>> >>>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com >>> >>>________________________________ >>>From: Vikas Deolaliker [mailto:vikas@sonoasystems.com] >>>Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:37 PM >>>To: Chiusano Joseph; 'Frank McCabe'; 'Ken Laskey' >>>Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org >>>Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data >>>Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>The problem with "canonical data model" is that it does not >>> >>> >>scale with time. >> >> >>>Eventually it will not canonicalize but constrain the richness of >>>communication that is expected among various SOA entities. >>> >>> >>> >>>IMHO SOA data mode should aim to define (a) the interfaces used by >>>SOA entities to exchange information, (b) mechanisms to >>> >>> >>discover these >> >> >>>interfaces and (c) mechanisms to negotiate a vocabulary/format for >>>data exchange over these discovered interfaces. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Vikas >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> >>> >>>From: Chiusano Joseph [mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com] >>>Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM >>>To: Frank McCabe; Ken Laskey >>>Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org >>>Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data >>>Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>I think some additional context may not have been provided below. >>>While the article does state "This article does not discuss how to >>>integrate data models", it is stated in the context of >>> >>> >>"this article >> >> >>>will not get into this topic because it is either out of >>> >>> >>scope or too complex to discuss". >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>>The author is actually a strong proponent of having an >>> >>> >>integrated data >> >> >>>model, as they depict an integrated data model as one of >>> >>> >>the layers of >> >> >>>their approach. I interpret this as a "canonical data >>> >>> >>model", which is >> >> >>>a special type of data model used for data exchange. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Joe >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Joseph Chiusano >>> >>>Booz Allen Hamilton >>> >>>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com >>> >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> >>> >>>From: Frank McCabe [mailto:frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com] >>>Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:03 PM >>>To: Ken Laskey >>>Cc: Chiusano Joseph; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org >>>Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data >>>Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" >>> >>> >>>+1 >>>Frank >>> >>> >>>On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>The critical line in this article is >>>> >>>>This article does not discuss how to integrate data models. >>>> >>>>Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we all get >>>>into a room and be reasonable we can all find a common >>>> >>>> >>vocabulary to >> >> >>>>map to. I could go on about when that works and when >>>> >>>> >>that doesn't >> >> >>>>(see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if that is the >>>>basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any other >>>> >>>> >>integration >> >> >>>>paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a system >>>>(service?) to do semantic negotiation between diverse >>>> >>>> >>vocabularies >> >> >>>>in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) allows you to >>>>use what you know (or can find) in ways that enables you >>>> >>>> >>to do more >> >> >>>>with little or no effort. >>>> >>>>The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it must also not >>>>codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale. >>>> >>>>End of rant:-) >>>> >>>>Ken >>>> >>>> >>>>On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested in >>>>>reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated data model as a >>>>>foundational concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to SOA >>>>>(about mid-article). >>>>> >>>>>Joe >>>>> >>>>>[1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Joseph Chiusano >>>>> >>>>>Booz Allen Hamilton >>>>> >>>>>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >>>>-------------------- >>>>Ken Laskey >>>>MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 >>>>7515 Colshire Drive fax: >>>> >>>> >>703-983-1379 >> >> >>>>McLean VA 22102-7508 >>>> >>>>*** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective >>>>4/15/2005 *** >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>The critical line in this article is >>>> >>>>This article does not discuss how to integrate data models. >>>> >>>>Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we all get >>>>into a room and be reasonable we can all find a common >>>> >>>> >>vocabulary to >> >> >>>>map to. I could go on about when that works and when >>>> >>>> >>that doesn't >> >> >>>>(see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if that is the >>>>basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any other >>>> >>>> >>integration >> >> >>>>paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a system >>>>(service?) to do semantic negotiation between diverse >>>> >>>> >>vocabularies >> >> >>>>in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) allows you to >>>>use what you know (or can find) in ways that enables you >>>> >>>> >>to do more >> >> >>>>with little or no effort. >>>> >>>>The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it must also not >>>>codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale. >>>> >>>>End of rant:-) >>>> >>>>Ken >>>> >>>> >>>>On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested in >>>>>reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated data model as a >>>>>foundational concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to SOA >>>>>(about mid-article). >>>>> >>>>>Joe >>>>> >>>>>[1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Joseph Chiusano >>>>> >>>>>Booz Allen Hamilton >>>>> >>>>>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >>>>-------------------- >>>>Ken Laskey >>>>MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 >>>>7515 Colshire Drive fax: >>>> >>>> >>703-983-1379 >> >> >>>>McLean VA 22102-7508 >>>> >>>>*** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective >>>>4/15/2005 *** >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> > > > -- *********** Senior Standards Strategist - Adobe Systems, Inc. - http://www.adobe.com Chair - OASIS Service Oriented Architecture Reference Model Technical Committee - http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=soa-rm Vice Chair - UN/CEFACT Bureau Plenary - http://www.unece.org/cefact/ Adobe Enterprise Developer Resources - http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/developer/main.html ***********
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