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Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece:"Managing an XML Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
The rub is that we are not defining a data model. If there was a definitive SOA-RM DM, then perhaps a canonical data model would be more appropriate. -matt Duane Nickull wrote: > Perhaps you are correct sir!! > > What do others think? > > Duane > > > > > Chiusano Joseph wrote: > >> Isn't the notion of a "data model" too general for our purposes? >> Shouldn't we be thinking in terms of a *canonical* data model[1]? If >> that is not what is needed, please give specifics as to why (i.e. I >> think that "we don't need a data model" is too general a statement). >> >> Thanks, >> Joe >> >> [1] http://www.eaipatterns.com/CanonicalDataModel.html >> >> Kind Regards, >> Joseph Chiusano >> Booz Allen Hamilton >> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com >> >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: John Harby [mailto:jharby@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 06, >>> 2005 1:13 PM >>> To: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org >>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data >>> Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" >>> >>> IMHO, SOA should really be defined independent of data model and a >>> general definition of SOA should support any strategy employable by >>> data tiers. Defining the notion of data model really seems out of >>> scope to me. >>> >>> On 5/6/05, Chiusano Joseph <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> These are very interesting thoughts - I like the term "SOA data >>>> model". Can you please clarify further what the difference >>> >>> between a "SOA data model" >>> >>> >>>> and a "canonical data model" would be? (since I believe "SOA data >>>> model" may now be a newly coined term) >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Joseph Chiusano >>>> >>>> Booz Allen Hamilton >>>> >>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: Vikas Deolaliker [mailto:vikas@sonoasystems.com] >>>> Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:37 PM >>>> To: Chiusano Joseph; 'Frank McCabe'; 'Ken Laskey' >>>> Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data >>>> Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The problem with "canonical data model" is that it does not >>> >>> scale with time. >>> >>> >>>> Eventually it will not canonicalize but constrain the richness of >>>> communication that is expected among various SOA entities. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> IMHO SOA data mode should aim to define (a) the interfaces used by >>>> SOA entities to exchange information, (b) mechanisms to >>> >>> discover these >>> >>>> interfaces and (c) mechanisms to negotiate a vocabulary/format for >>>> data exchange over these discovered interfaces. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Vikas >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Chiusano Joseph [mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com] >>>> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM >>>> To: Frank McCabe; Ken Laskey >>>> Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data >>>> Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think some additional context may not have been provided below. >>>> While the article does state "This article does not discuss how to >>>> integrate data models", it is stated in the context of >>> >>> "this article >>> >>>> will not get into this topic because it is either out of >>> >>> scope or too complex to discuss". >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The author is actually a strong proponent of having an >>> >>> integrated data >>> >>>> model, as they depict an integrated data model as one of >>> >>> the layers of >>> >>>> their approach. I interpret this as a "canonical data >>> >>> model", which is >>> >>>> a special type of data model used for data exchange. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Joseph Chiusano >>>> >>>> Booz Allen Hamilton >>>> >>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Frank McCabe [mailto:frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com] >>>> Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:03 PM >>>> To: Ken Laskey >>>> Cc: Chiusano Joseph; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data >>>> Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" >>>> >>>> >>>> +1 >>>> Frank >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> The critical line in this article is >>>>> >>>>> This article does not discuss how to integrate data models. >>>>> >>>>> Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we all get >>>>> into a room and be reasonable we can all find a common >>>> >>> vocabulary to >>> >>>>> map to. I could go on about when that works and when >>>> >>> that doesn't >>> >>>>> (see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if that is the >>>>> basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any other >>>> >>> integration >>> >>>>> paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a system >>>>> (service?) to do semantic negotiation between diverse >>>> >>> vocabularies >>> >>>>> in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) allows you to >>>>> use what you know (or can find) in ways that enables you >>>> >>> to do more >>> >>>>> with little or no effort. >>>>> >>>>> The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it must also not >>>>> codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale. >>>>> >>>>> End of rant:-) >>>>> >>>>> Ken >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested in >>>>>> reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated data model as a >>>>>> foundational concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to SOA >>>>>> (about mid-article). >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe >>>>>> >>>>>> [1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Joseph Chiusano >>>>>> >>>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>>>> -------------------- >>>>> Ken Laskey >>>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 >>>>> 7515 Colshire Drive fax: >>>> >>> 703-983-1379 >>> >>> >>>>> McLean VA 22102-7508 >>>>> >>>>> *** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective >>>>> 4/15/2005 *** >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> The critical line in this article is >>>>> >>>>> This article does not discuss how to integrate data models. >>>>> >>>>> Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we all get >>>>> into a room and be reasonable we can all find a common >>>> >>> vocabulary to >>> >>>>> map to. I could go on about when that works and when >>>> >>> that doesn't >>> >>>>> (see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if that is the >>>>> basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any other >>>> >>> integration >>> >>>>> paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a system >>>>> (service?) to do semantic negotiation between diverse >>>> >>> vocabularies >>> >>>>> in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) allows you to >>>>> use what you know (or can find) in ways that enables you >>>> >>> to do more >>> >>>>> with little or no effort. >>>>> >>>>> The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it must also not >>>>> codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale. >>>>> >>>>> End of rant:-) >>>>> >>>>> Ken >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested in >>>>>> reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated data model as a >>>>>> foundational concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to SOA >>>>>> (about mid-article). >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe >>>>>> >>>>>> [1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Joseph Chiusano >>>>>> >>>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>>>> -------------------- >>>>> Ken Laskey >>>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 >>>>> 7515 Colshire Drive fax: >>>> >>> 703-983-1379 >>> >>> >>>>> McLean VA 22102-7508 >>>>> >>>>> *** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective >>>>> 4/15/2005 *** >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >
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