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Subject: Re: [tag] Re: Done - Re: Ready to start next, potential candidate drafts
Sorry, I see now the main comment which would affect implementations is the last about report. I guess there is case for agreeing this before a vote Best regards Steve --- Stephen D Green 2010/1/19 Stephen Green <stephen.green@documentengineeringservices.com>: > Hi Kevin > > Welcome back > >> >> I had some comments questions on the model. Probably some of these things >> should be considered before voting a draft. > > > I'm not sure your comments would need > any halt on going to CD since they seem > to relate just to the text of the specs and > not substantively to the implementations. > > >> 5.) Pages 13 - 30 >> Probably this is because all structures are related to a direct >> implementation in the style-sheets/schema. >> Almost all of these structures have elements which are purely optional (eg. >> '(0..1)') The problem is this means that it is completely valid to have >> empty structures. That is, it is OK to have (for example): >> >> normativeSource { } >> >> There probably should be some kind of nomenclature that prevents this. >> > > > This at first glance might have normative, > substantive implications but I'm not sure > it does since it is always possible to have > empty elements: Even if you mandate that > > <normativeSource/> > > is invalid, which is difficult to do and even > more difficult to enforce in an instance, > > <normativeSource>.</normativeSource> > > would still be valid but just as irksome. > > I would suggest we are best leaving this to > best practise and the guidelines rather than > to implementations which cannot really > enforce it (not without unreasonable cost in > complexity of the implementation, eg it is > difficult to go through an instance removing > or flagging all empty elements). If you want > to specify a normativeSource either implicitly > or in some other way such as in an outer > testAssertionSet as a shared value then it is > unreasonable to have the spec requirements > prevent this. So it seems to me. In other > words I'd think we could put this and your > other comments as points for improvement > (we have discussed setting up Jira for this) > along with public review comments in a > further set of documents after the review and > still go through with a vote. > > Best regards > > Steve > --- > Stephen D Green > > > > > 2010/1/19 Kevin Looney <Kevin.T.Looney@sun.com>: >> Hi Stephen and everyone, >> >> Sorry I haven't had much chance to participate (I think I was last >> calling in when we voted to separate the model from the guideline). My >> apologies for bringing my comments in late >> >> I had some comments questions on the model. Probably some of these things >> should be considered before voting a draft. >> >> ========================================================= >> 1.) Page 6, Section "Normative Statement, ..." >> Uses a term "Conformance Target" - is this sufficiently defined? I don't >> see definition or reference to it elsewhere. >> >> 2.) Page 10, Implicit Test Assertion Parts >> I think the idea of using implicit values is good, especially for things >> like Test Assertion Target (where the Target may be the entire spec). How >> are the implicit parts qualified? Would there be some kind of conformance >> statement that says something like "when Target is not specified, assume the >> testing target is the entire spec"? >> >> 3.) Page 11, Convention Used for Formally Defining the Model >> This first paragraph looks like a duplicate of section 1.1 (page 5). Can >> this be removed, or shortened to say something like "refer to section 1.1 in >> regards to the overloading of "class" and "attribute" >> >> 4.) Also page 7 >> I find the (x..y) notation rather curious. It looks semantically similar to >> elements of Regular expressions (such as '*' and '+'). Why aren't we using >> Regular Expression notation? >> >> 5.) Pages 13 - 30 >> Probably this is because all structures are related to a direct >> implementation in the style-sheets/schema. >> Almost all of these structures have elements which are purely optional (eg. >> '(0..1)') The problem is this means that it is completely valid to have >> empty structures. That is, it is OK to have (for example): >> >> normativeSource { } >> >> There probably should be some kind of nomenclature that prevents this. >> >> 6.) page 19, report >> 'Report' was a new element for me, I had not seen this before. It's >> definition is pretty vague, and I'm wondering if it is too implementation >> specific (eg. describing how TAs should be reported by some tool, not part >> of this specification). >> >> ========================================================= >> >> On 1/7/10 1:07 PM, Stephen Green wrote: >>> >>> I'm all for starting a ballot (at some point, as Dennis says) >>> based on these last posted drafts (not further changes) >>> - unless of course anyone in the TC has requests for further >>> changes first (e.g. if even at this stage we wanted to ask >>> Dmitry to look over them and we made changes as a result >>> - as per my AI for the Jan 5th meeting - though this would >>> put back our schedule so I'm not sure now). >>> >>> As the minutes just posted say though we did make a >>> decision on 5th Jan to aim for a set of drafts for this by 18th >>> - but if there were agreement generally to actually start a >>> ballot on 18th based on the drafts just posted here >>> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/tag/201001/msg00054.html >>> I'd kind of be in favour too - but we do need to give everyone >>> voting (and those not voting too) enough time to review them. >>> >>> By getting drafts out already, I think it gives us time to make >>> changes before the ballot, but with the consideration that this >>> then shortens the time for reviewing the final version before >>> the ballot and also adds to the workload of sorting between >>> several draft versions. Ideally we'd want these drafts to be OK >>> for ballot and have plenty of time before a ballot to review them >>> while freezing them (as Dennis suggests). >>> >>> I'm not really in favour of separate public reviews though. I get >>> the impression that related specs are supposed to be put out >>> together (though we could argue that they are actually distinct). >>> There are dependencies which mean that a change to one >>> requires a change to the others (e.g. a change to the markup >>> requires a change to the guidelines and maybe to the model). >>> We could get into a mix-up if we had review of one spec then >>> agreed it but a subsequent review of another spec required us >>> to go back and change the first. Better, I think, if we can >>> respond to any comments on either document by changing >>> potentially all of the documents at the same time following a >>> simultaneous public review. >>> >>> Even if we didn't have all our members with voting rights at the >>> time of a ballot I'm sure we would accommodate the expression >>> of approval (or otherwise) from those who would normally vote >>> but might not be able to vote officially - an unofficial vote or just >>> a statement of agreement on the list would be valuable all the >>> same. As of course would participation in internal TC review >>> which is fine even for non-voting members. >>> >>> >>> Best regards >>> >>> Steve >>> --- >>> Stephen D Green >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 2010/1/7 Dennis E. Hamilton<dennis.hamilton@acm.org>: >>> >>>> >>>> Sorry to go all parliamentary on this, but this is serious business and >>>> we >>>> must be careful to demonstrate that we are deliberate and thorough. >>>> Also, I >>>> am not sure what a candidate draft is a candidate for. We need to be >>>> more >>>> clear. I assume Stephen means specific working drafts that are proposed >>>> for >>>> balloting for acceptance as Committee Drafts (and as Public Review Drafts >>>> if >>>> concurrent approval for that is included in a single ballot). >>>> >>>> I'm concerned that we are rushing more than necessary to have the stages >>>> work. (If we are laboring under a strict deadline, I am not aware of >>>> it.) >>>> >>>> Let's look at this in terms of deliberate stages that are needed to get >>>> to >>>> Public Review. >>>> >>>> A. I think there are three steps: >>>> >>>> 1. Approval of the three documents as Committee Drafts. >>>> >>>> 2. Approval of the three Committee Drafts for Public Review. >>>> >>>> 3. Submission of the Public Review Drafts to the TC Administrator for >>>> conducting the 60-day public review. >>>> >>>> B. We can do (1-2) concurrently. However, for the first try, I >>>> recommend >>>> decoupling them and doing them sequentially. If we need to recycle after >>>> (1), with new proposed CDs, that re-proposal can be with a combined (1-2) >>>> ballot. I against having the working documents that go into (1) be >>>> already >>>> identified as (new) committee drafts. The update to a CD number should >>>> only >>>> happen after CD approval of a working document (including a working draft >>>> that is a revision of a previous CD). Having more than one document >>>> around >>>> that claims to be CDxx makes for craziness. We just did that at the ODF >>>> TC >>>> and it was awkward. >>>> >>>> C. I recommend that every (1) and (2) (or 1-2 together) be by electronic >>>> ballot. That means it runs a minimum of time and it might as well run to >>>> end just before the next scheduled call that is far enough into the >>>> future >>>> to satisfy the minimum. Then we can use that call to decide whether to >>>> go >>>> to the next step or make necessary comment-responsive changes and >>>> recycle. >>>> >>>> D. We need the documents to stand still during these ballots and public >>>> reviews too. We can collect comments but the only documents being >>>> commented >>>> on should be the ones under ballot or in public review. No new >>>> working/updated drafts should be posted until after the end of a ballot. >>>> Otherwise things go too random. >>>> >>>> E. KEY POINT: The electronic ballot forces us to identify who the >>>> eligible >>>> voting members are at the start of that ballot. It also causes visible >>>> notifications, reminders, and encourages the attention of folks, >>>> including >>>> those who have not maintained their Voting Member status. >>>> If we start an electronic ballot right now, it will be who the voting >>>> members were after the completion of the last TC call. I think there are >>>> only 3-5 of us, depending who was on the last two calls in 2009 as well >>>> as >>>> the January 5 call. I *think* (1) and (2) require full majority >>>> approval. >>>> Please don't take my word for it. >>>> I'm not sure we can start an electronic ballot now if we don't have a >>>> standing rule that allows for initiating them at other than a TC call. >>>> The >>>> TC Procedures need to be checked for that. >>>> If not, we can vote to start the electronic ballot on the January 19 >>>> call. >>>> If motions for electronic ballots can be done on the list in accordance >>>> with TC Procedures, we can do that and, I think, run a ballot that ends >>>> on >>>> January 18. We should do that quickly, in that case. >>>> >>>> - Dennis >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: stephengreenubl@gmail.com [mailto:stephengreenubl@gmail.com] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Stephen Green >>>> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/tag/201001/msg00031.html >>>> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 07:33 >>>> To: TAG TC >>>> Subject: [tag] Re: Done - Re: Ready to start next, potential candidate >>>> drafts >>>> >>>> Following TC Admin approval of the namespace in the >>>> schema >>>> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/tag/201001/msg00029.html >>>> I believe we can proceed with these drafts, if the TC agrees, >>>> and treat these drafts as candidates for a ballot. Unless >>>> anyone has anything they think we still need to change. >>>> I think it was agreed at the last TC meeting we would aim >>>> to have the candidate drafts agreed by next Tuesday (12th Jan), >>>> though perhaps we can agree them sooner than that. (Not >>>> yet the ballot of course, just approval of drafts to proceed >>>> with to a ballot.) >>>> >>>> Best regards >>>> >>>> Steve >>>> --- >>>> Stephen D Green >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2010/1/6 Stephen Green<stephen.green@documentengineeringservices.com>: >>>> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/tag/201001/msg00020.html >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Done... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> guidelines: >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/35805/testassertionsguidel >>>> ines-draft-1-0-9-3.pdf >>>> >>>>> >>>>> model spec: >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/35806/testassertionsmodel- >>>> draft-1-0-1.pdf >>>> >>>>> >>>>> markup spec: >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/35801/testassertionmarkupl >>>> anguage-draft-1-0-2.pdf >>>> >>>>> >>>>> markup schema: >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/35803/testAssertionMarkupL >>>> anguage-draft-1-0-2.xsd >>>> >>>>> >>>>> markup namespace document: >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/35796/testassertionmarkupl >>>> anguage-1.0-namespaceDocument.zip >>>> >>>>> >>>>> [I hope the above could be candidates for balloting towards committee >>>>> >>>> >>>> draft >>>> >>>>> >>>>> and public review.] >>>>> >>>>> ---- >>>>> >>>>> markup examples updated with new, OASIS-guided namespace >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/35808/ubl-ta-draft-1-0-2.x >>>> ml >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/35809/widgetTAExample-1-0- >>>> 2.xml >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best regards >>>>> >>>>> Steve >>>>> --- >>>>> Stephen D Green >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2010/1/6 Stephen Green<stephen.green@documentengineeringservices.com>: >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I will possibly send extracts of proposed text for your >>>>>>> consideration prior to updating the drafts so we can do this >>>>>>> all with just one iteration of the three documents. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> As it happens, I think I have been able to update the drafts >>>>>> without any likely further issues. I will send drafts shortly >>>>>> which I hope might be acceptable as candidates for ballot >>>>>> moving towards committee draft status, and public review. >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, that is best case scenario: Not-so-best case is >>>>>> that there is plenty of time still before the end of the week >>>>>> for me to respond to any issues and send another set of >>>>>> drafts if need be. Please let me know soon if I should do so >>>>>> (by the weekend ideally). >>>>>> >>>>>> The markup drafts which I hope can be candidate drafts were >>>>>> uploaded earlier today - >>>>>> schema: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/tag/201001/msg00012.html >>>>>> spec: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/tag/201001/msg00011.html >>>>>> [There is a very minor error in the spec in that I have put the >>>>>> year 2009 (should be 2010) in the reference to the model spec. >>>>>> I hope I can correct that later.] >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards >>>>>> >>>>>> Steve >>>>>> --- >>>>>> Stephen D Green >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2010/1/6 Stephen Green<stephen.green@documentengineeringservices.com>: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If we are all agreed on my last two emails >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/tag/201001/msg00003.html >>>>>>> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/tag/201001/msg00004.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> resolving the only outstanding issues, I believe >>>>>>> I can start work on the next iteration (potentially candidate drafts). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I will possibly send extracts of proposed text for your >>>>>>> consideration prior to updating the drafts so we can do this >>>>>>> all with just one iteration of the three documents. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> Stephen D Green >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >>>> generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: >>>> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >>> generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: >>> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >>> >>> >> >> >
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