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Subject: Re: [xtm-wg] re topic.scope
Heiko, I greatly sympathize with what you are saying here. --Nikita. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heiko Beier" <heiko.beier@moresophy.de> To: <xtm-wg@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 9:56 AM Subject: RE: [xtm-wg] re topic.scope > Nikita, Piotr, > > I agree that scope is a mighty yet heavily overloaded concept. And like all > sophisticated 'tools' it can either be of great use when it is used in a > careful and consistent manner, but hazardous and confusing when used without > any special care and methodology. Like many other aspects, I propose, the > correct use of scope is part of a well planned topic map design process. A > TM design will absolutely be based on strict type hierarchies and schemata. > In such a scenario scope can also be represented, as Piotr said, by the > superclass hiearchy of a topic. If you understand context as the environment > or domain that sorrounds or includes the 'topic of interest' (which is a > common definition in literature), context can even be interpreted as the sum > of all associations and associated topics, i.e. the complete topic map from > the point of view of the topic of interest. > > This may sound rather academic, but it illustrates my point: there are many > ways to 'model' or represent context, and scope is just one means which is > explicitly declared in the topic map language. So I think scope should be > used as a syntactic shorthand (note that the <scope> element is again just a > shorthand for a topic association expressing scope, where one member plays > the role of being scoped and the other playing the role of representing the > scope) in cases where the more elaborate modelling of context by other means > is either too tedious or may be beyond the intended 'expressiveness' of the > topic map. In this way it might well serve as a mechanism to 'tag' topics > for interpretation by application systems for expressing specific user > contexts (access level, user profile etc.) Or also for a quick way for > expressing context without a complete redesign of the topic map design. > > In other words: I guess the current very interesting discussion around the > meaning and use of scope will become clearer once topic maps have been > understood by the community to require a similar design approch like for > instance OO modelling. > > concerning the ideological debate about whether a topic itself can have > scope - or only topic characteristics should be scopable: I support the 2nd > opinion. I have to admit I havent yet understood what you can gain from > allowing scope to be attached to the topic itself. Maybe someone could > explain this to me. On the other hand I am afraid changing the XTM spec in > this respect might cause a lot of work as it will also affect the topic map > merging rules. > > > Heiko > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Dr. Heiko Beier - CEO - moresophy GmbH > Brienner Str. 54b - 80333 Munich > Tel: +49-89-523041-71 - Fax: +49-89-523041-89 > ------------------------------------------------------------ > moresophy -> more sophy -> think meta > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > | -----Original Message----- > | From: Nikita Ogievetsky [mailto:nogievet@cogx.com] > | Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 5:50 PM > | To: xtm-wg@yahoogroups.com > | Subject: Re: [xtm-wg] re topic.scope > | > | > | Piotr, > | > | Scope tends to be very overloaded. > | And this is the source of confusion. > | Its main purpose is to assert a context within which a certain > | statement (association) holds. > | Then people start punting all convenience shortcuts into it and get > | confused. > | > | Topic can not "make sense in a certain context" > | Topic by itself does not make any sense AT ALL! > | Topic's characteristics do. > | And YES you can scope all topic characteristics. > | Lets be clear on this. > | > | As Steve P. says,. > | >Themes specified on a <topic> element are only "inherited" by names > | >and occurrences that are subelements of that element. > | > | So in ISO if you put a <scope> on a <topic> level it will mean that > | all topic characteristics defined by this <topic> element > | "make sense in a certain scope". > | > | But stop, remember that there are might be multiple > | <topic> elements for a single topic (subject) plus associations ... > | > | However, I found it a good practice to use > | typing for hiding topics from certain user groups, for example. > | (similar to Piotr's and Ivan's suggestion, I guess) > | > | --Nikita, > | > | ---------------------------------------------------------- > | Nikita Ogievetsky Cogitech Inc > | XML/XSLT/XLink/TopicMaps Consultant > | nogievet@cogx.com -- (917) 406-8734 > | http://www.cogx.com Cogito Ergo XML > | > | > | > | > | ----- Original Message ----- > | From: "Piotr Kaminski" <pkaminsk@who.net> > | To: <xtm-wg@yahoogroups.com> > | Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 6:17 AM > | Subject: Re: [xtm-wg] re topic.scope > | > | > | > I have a potentially silly suggestion to make: > | > > | > For topics, does type classification not serve the same purpose as Ivan > | > would like scopes to serve? > | > > | > So if a topic only makes sense in a certain "context", just make that > | > context into a class, and make sure the topic is of that class, > | and others > | > that don't belong in the context aren't. It would be the class of "all > | > things that make sense in <fill-in-the-blank> context>. > | > > | > The obvious problem with this interpretation is that the topics' classes > | > will not match the associations' scopes (unless a topic can be both a > | class > | > and a scope simultaneously? hmm...). Which of course brings up another > | > suggestion: why have separate concepts of class and scope for > | associations? > | > Just allow them to have multiple types, and use these for > | scoping. What's > | > the big difference between classes and scopes that would prevent this? > | > > | > Steve P.: I have not yet read your paper on scoping, though it's on my > | > immediate to-do list. If the answers to my questions are all contained > | > therein, don't waste your time answering my rantings. :-) > | > > | > -- P. > | > > | > -- > | > Piotr Kaminski <pkaminsk@who.net> http://www.csr.uvic.ca/~pkaminsk > | > "It's the heart afraid of breaking that never learns to dance." > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > To Post a message, send it to: xtm-wg@yahooGroups.com > | > > | > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > | xtm-wg-unsubscribe@yahooGroups.com > | > > | > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > | http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > | > | > | To Post a message, send it to: xtm-wg@yahooGroups.com > | > | To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > | xtm-wg-unsubscribe@yahooGroups.com > | > | Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > | > | > > > > To Post a message, send it to: xtm-wg@yahooGroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: xtm-wg-unsubscribe@yahooGroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------- Nikita Ogievetsky, Consultant Cogitech Inc. XSLT and topic maps tutorials. email: nogievet@cogx.com, phone: (917) 406-8734 http://www.cogx.com || Cogito Ergo XML ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Secure your servers with 128-bit SSL encryption! Grab your copy of VeriSign's FREE Guide: "Securing Your Web Site for Business." Get it Now! http://www.verisign.com/cgi-bin/go.cgi?a=n094442340008000 http://us.click.yahoo.com/n7RbFC/zhwCAA/yigFAA/2U_rlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To Post a message, send it to: xtm-wg@yahooGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: xtm-wg-unsubscribe@yahooGroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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