Re: [ubl-dev] Applicability of 'Forwarding instructions' in the absence of an ordering context

["Stephen Green" <stephengreenubl@gmail.com>]

I think your best bet is to gather a small group to look into these issues
related to which if any UBL 2 documents can be used for the domain
in question and to be ready to create conformant custom document types if
necessary. It looks like they are beyond resolution by simple discussion
and some research would have to be conducted into the legal requirements,
etc in your locality.

I have some reservations about how general statements in the main body
of the UBL 2 spec relate to conformant use of the UBL document types,
in comparison to the weight of the schemas and their definitions. As such
I would interpret UBL's conformance requirements (still to be fully elaborated
in the forthcoming Customisation Guidelines) as implying that as long as the
use of the documents doesn't contravene the document definitions found in
the schemas then reuse of the documents is OK without change when the
instance structure, semantics and syntax conform to the schemas. This
means an Order can be used as a Delivery Service Request Order as long
as the definition of the OrderType allows it and the instance is valid by the
Order schema. The OrderType definition of UBL 2 reads
"The document used to order goods and services" so the semantics don't
prevent its use for services. Local requirements might dictate that the
same document type used for purchase orders not be used for delivery
service request orders.

I don't think it has yet been made a firm conformance requirement that a
document's use match the UBL 2 spec process diagram and description.
Otherwise this would need to be added to the Custmisation Guidelines
document and I don't think this has been included in the latest draft.

So, in my opinion, it is a matter of simply looking at the Order and the
Transport domain documents to determine whether they can be used in
this domain without semantic, structural or syntactic change. That would
be no small task in my experience (or the experience I know others have
had). So best to find a group interested in this at the broadest/highest
level - such as an auto-industry or auto-rental or vehicle-delivery industry
standards group to get the economy of scale.

On 19/02/2008, Jan Algermissen <algermissen1971@mac.com> wrote:
> Fulton,
>
> actually, when reading the relevant section:
>
> "These process define the ordering of logistical services for
> international trade. With receipt of an order and acknowledgement by
> the Supplier Party that the goods are available and ready to be
> shipped, the Consignor or Consignee initiates the transportation
> arrangements. This includes booking the consignment with a Transport
> Service Provider such as the Freight Forwarder or Carrier and
> advising the Delivery Party of the arrangements as needed."
>
> My impression is that the definition is actually deliberately general
> because it uses the term "supplier party" and does not mention a
> specific role (e.g. seller). The definition also refers to the
> process as the "ordering" so I am a little troubled to see how using
> the 'main' order process is more suitable.
>
> This is of course my reading only - could someone shed some light on
> this?
>
> I do see your point though, Fulton.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jan
>
>
> On 19.02.2008, at 16:15, Fulton Wilcox wrote:
>
> > The logistics process in my view does not fit the rental car pickup
> > process,
> > which is much simpler.
> >
> > It is clear that the transport process sits between the supplier (by
> > definition the source of what is being transports) and the customer
> > who
> > order the goods. For example, from section 4.8 Initiate Transport
> > Services:
> > "With receipt of an order and acknowledgement by the Supplier Party
> > that the
> > goods are available and ready to be shipped, the Consignor or
> > Consignee
> > initiates the transportation arrangements."
> > http://docs.oasis-open.org/ubl/os-UBL-2.0/UBL-2.0.html#d0e1998
> >
> > The rental vehicle pickup scenario is far simpler. There is a
> > vehicle to be
> > picked up, and the supplier simply needs an order to go and pick it
> > up.
> > There are only two parties to the relationship, the rental car
> > company is
> > the customer, and the pickup services provider is the supplier.
> >
> > Simple is better. The rental car company issues a UBL order to the
> > transport
> > company, and the subsequent flow of transactions (e.g., an order
> > acknowledgement, an invoice) is a business as usual sequence.
> >
> >
> >                                       Fulton Wilcox
> >                                       Colts Neck Solutions LLC
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jan Algermissen [mailto:algermissen1971@mac.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 3:15 AM
> > To: Andrew Schoka
> > Cc: ubl-dev@lists.oasis-open.org
> > Subject: Re: [ubl-dev] Applicability of 'Forwarding instructions'
> > in the
> > absence of an ordering context
> >
> > Hi Andy,
> >
> > yes, this helps, thank you.
> >
> > I think my major issues with these documents and processes is that I
> > am unsure if the transported good must have been subject to a
> > previous ordering process. Can you confirm that the logistics
> > processes you mention below are completely independent from any
> > previous sourcing and ordering processes?
> >
> > On a different subject: the ordering of the transport services is
> > just a separate issue, but could also be done using UBL, yes? I guess
> > that usually a seller would at some point send an order for
> > transportation services to the transport service provider in order to
> > establish the general contract for using thetransport services. The
> > transport service provider would propably bill the seller for the
> > individual transports but ordering would cover the service in general.
> > Am I making sense?
> >
> > Thanks for the help,
> >
> > Jan
> >
> > On 18.02.2008, at 15:46, Andrew Schoka wrote:
> >
> >> Jan,
> >>
> >> You asked:
> >>
> >>> What about other areas of logistsics (coordination of service
> >>> providers) - is UBL intended to fit or has this never been
> >>> considered?
> >>
> >>
> >> I would call your attention to the complement of transport-related
> >> documents
> >> in UBL 2.0.  It would seem that these have relevance to your question
> >> regarding coordination of service providers. In a transport
> >> context, a
> >> freight forwarder does just that, function as a coordinator obtaining
> >> transport services for a goods provider needing to have his
> >> consignment
> >> delivered perhaps using multiple (mode) carriers.
> >>
> >> The UBL 2.0 documents and library are designed to support typical
> >> transport
> >> business processes including an "Initiate Transport Services
> >> Process" and a
> >> "Report Status of Goods Process." These processes define the
> >> ordering of
> >> logistical services for international trade. With receipt of an
> >> order and
> >> acknowledgement by the Supplier Party that the goods are available
> >> and ready
> >> to be shipped, the Consignor or Consignee initiates the
> >> transportation
> >> arrangements. This includes booking the consignment with a
> >> Transport Service
> >> Provider such as the Freight Forwarder or Carrier and advising the
> >> Delivery
> >> Party of the arrangements as needed. UBL document types in these
> >> processes
> >> are Forwarding Instructions, Packing List, Waybill, Bill of Lading
> >> and
> >> Transport Status.
> >>
> >> Hope this helps.
> >>
> >> Andy Schoka
> >> AMSchoka Consulting LLC
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Jan Algermissen [mailto:algermissen1971@mac.com]
> >> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 11:15 AM
> >> To: ubl-dev@lists.oasis-open.org
> >> Subject: [ubl-dev] Applicability of 'Forwarding instructions' in
> >> the absence
> >> of an ordering context
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> (thanks so far for the thoughful responses, I'll reply to those
> >> later)
> >>
> >> I have a use case from the car leasing domain and have a question
> >> regarding the applicability of UBL.
> >>
> >> The use case is taken from the car remarketing part of the leasing
> >> domain: when a leasing contract ends, it is (at least in Germany)
> >> comman practice for the leasing customer to drop of the car at some
> >> location (e.g. her home address) and inform the leasing company that
> >> the car can be picked up.
> >> The leasing company will then issue a request to some third party
> >> transport service supplier to pick up the car and deliver it to the
> >> company's used car parking lot.
> >>
> >> For the collaboration between the leasing company and the transport
> >> service provider I would like to apply UBL processes and documents
> >> but I am not sure
> >>
> >> - whether UBL's processes are applicable at all
> >> - whether the request to the transport service supplier is an offer
> >> or a forwarding request
> >> - how to best go about extending the appropriate document to provide
> >> the transport parameters to the
> >>    service provider (location, vehicle plate number,  time of pick up
> >> etc.) - this seems like a general
> >>    issue when ordering services, ...yes?
> >>
> >> There are about half a dozen other processes in the remarketing
> >> domain (many of them service requests)....should I generally try to
> >> extend the UBL or is the use case domain so different that I should
> >> make up my own processes and documents (maybe reusing UBL
> >> components)?
> >>
> >> What about other areas of logistsics (coordination of service
> >> providers) - is UBL intended to fit or has this never been
> >> considered?
> >>
> >> Thanks for help,
> >>
> >> Jan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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-- 
Stephen D. Green

Partner
SystML, http://www.systml.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0) 117 9541606

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