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Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin
Please also suspend emails to John Casillas and Tom Dean.
thanks
john hardin wrote:
> Bah and humbug. This looks like the fun part!
> Please everyone do me a favor, and remove Tony Scott, John Jackson and
> Pat Snack from the replies... I want to communicate to them at a high
> level when there is change or movement happening.
>
> thank you.
> john
>
> ps - i'm pretty thick-skinned. i also have wrath like a woman scorned.
>
> ; >
>
> Matthew MacKenzie wrote:
>
>> I think that we may be a pack of pedantic creeps :-)
>>
>> I'm sure John is cursing us right now ;p
>>
>> Chiusano Joseph wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks John - that clears it up. ebMS v3, not ebXML v3. I now retract my
>>> original observation. :)
>>>
>>> Kind Regards,
>>> Joseph Chiusano
>>> Booz Allen Hamilton
>>> Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: john hardin [mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com] Sent:
>>>> Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:01 AM
>>>> To: Matthew MacKenzie
>>>> Cc: Chiusano Joseph; David Webber (XML); Monica J. Martin; Duane
>>>> Nickull; dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com;
>>>> tony.scott@gm.com; john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org;
>>>> ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com; golsen@contivo.com; John
>>>> Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net; tdean@criticaltech.net;
>>>> ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark
>>>> Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin
>>>>
>>>> OK, I am now learning to be very specific. I am referring to ebMS v3.
>>>>
>>>> Matthew MacKenzie wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> John,
>>>>>
>>>>> Where did this vision come from? I didn't get the memo.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Certainly,
>>>>
>>>>> the ebMS team has communicated and moved our work in that
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> direction,
>>>>
>>>>> but I don't see other ebStandards explicitly moving toward
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> that vision.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -matt
>>>>>
>>>>> Chiusano Joseph wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sounds great - where can I get more OASIS-official public
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> information
>>>>
>>>>>> on this? And also on ebXML v2? This is highly useful and valuable
>>>>>> information.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind Regards,
>>>>>> Joseph Chiusano
>>>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton
>>>>>> Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: john hardin [mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com] Sent:
>>>>>>> Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:30 AM
>>>>>>> To: David Webber (XML)
>>>>>>> Cc: Chiusano Joseph; Monica J. Martin; Duane Nickull;
>>>>>>> dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com;
>>>>>>> tony.scott@gm.com; john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org;
>>>>>>> ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com;
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> golsen@contivo.com; John
>>>>
>>>>>>> Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net; tdean@criticaltech.net;
>>>>>>> ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That would be the list, thanks David.
>>>>>>> Joe, the ebMS v3 direction has been (and I think still is) to
>>>>>>> encompass the WS-I Basic Profile, the WS-Security and other WS*
>>>>>>> specs, thereby moving towards convergence. A curious
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> point is that
>>>>
>>>>>>> we don't see that kind of outreach yet from the other side....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> john
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David Webber (XML) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is exactly what we are qualifiying here in ebSOA!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We have BPSS V2, ebMS V3, Registey V3 - but no updated
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> architecture
>>>>
>>>>>>>> that documents the new capabilities that all this enables.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks, DW
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "john hardin" <john@sanghainteractive.com>; "Monica
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> J. Martin"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> <Monica.Martin@Sun.COM>; "David RR Webber"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <david@drrw.info>; "Duane
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nickull" <dnickull@adobe.com>; <dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com>;
>>>>>>>> <jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com>; <tony.scott@gm.com>;
>>>>>>>> <john.l.jackson@gm.com>; <psnack@aiag.org>;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com>;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <ronschuldt@msn.com>; <golsen@contivo.com>; "John Casillas"
>>>>>>>> <johnc@mbproject.org>; <mjyader@comcast.net>;
>>>>>>>> <tdean@criticaltech.net>; <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>;
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "James Bryce Clark"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <jamie.clark@oasis-open.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 7:29 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <Quote>
>>>>>>>> a) work towards interop between the WS and eb camps (ebXML v3 is
>>>>>>>> closing that gap rapidly - thanks Dale!) </Quote>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can you please explain what "ebXML v3" is?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joseph Chiusano
>>>>>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton
>>>>>>>> Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: john hardin [mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com]
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 3:58 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Monica J. Martin; David RR Webber; Duane Nickull;
>>>>>>>>> dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com;
>>>>>>>>> tony.scott@gm.com; john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org;
>>>>>>>>> ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> golsen@contivo.com; John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net; tdean@criticaltech.net;
>>>>>>>>> ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks Monica and thanks to all for the warm welcome.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have copied a number of folks on this, because I
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> would like to
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> enlist their assistance for the ebSOA editing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> activities or
>>>>
>>>>>>> just for
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ideas as we move forward. Also Jamie and Dale asked me about
>>>>>>>>> addressing the ebXML-jc group. I had a good
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> conversation with Jamie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the other night, and got some direction from both him and
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> from Duane.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would very much like to address the ebXML-jc, and get a
>>>>>>>>> braindump how the two groups need to dovetail. I'll
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> plan on being
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> on the call next Wed if allowed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My primary vision for the ebSOA group is to move forward
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> with the work
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> from the charter (pattern catalog) and act as a facilitator
>>>>>>>>> towards
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> interoperability among the upcoming business process
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> frameworks (WS*,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ebXML and SemWeb are three that are working to gain
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> dominance). The
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> request-response model is a very simplistic view that
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> isn't
>>>>
>>>>>>> currently
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> mapping well onto the true complexity that large
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> industries have
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> developed in their shared business processes. For
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> example,
>>>>
>>>>>>> no one will
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> argue today that inventory visibility for the automotive
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> industry is a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> request-response model between two partners. Healthcare
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> is another
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> area that is very complex, and requires multiple
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> interactions between
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> large numbers of process participants to complete the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> information
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> exchange, with forks and decisions during the execution.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The other reality is that process participants require constant
>>>>>>>>> realtime feeds of information from many points in the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> process, which
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> are owned and offered by various companies of various
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> sizes and IT
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> capabilities.
>>>>>>>>> This spells out, to me at least, the need for a network
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> operating
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> framework, where processes run in an "app fabric"
>>>>>>>>> that is dependable and very open. Then we can layer event
>>>>>>>>> causation techniques and other things like shared
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> industry process
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> B.A.M. on top. The network REALLY IS the computer....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To accomplish this kind of integration, I believe that
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> we need to:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> a) work towards interop between the WS and eb camps
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (ebXML v3 is
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> closing that gap rapidly - thanks Dale!)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> b) gather and document, then publish and evangelize,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> real world use
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> cases that prove SOA principles using ebXML and WS and
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> shine a light
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> on successful implementations
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> c) include both WS* and ebXML patterns, along with SemWeb and
>>>>>>>>> agent patterns (no rocks thrown, please - the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SemWeb/Agent stuff
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> is the long-term target)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> d) work with WS-I and the specs to ensure that we have
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> consistent
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> direction towards convergence
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My belief is that the entire IT industry is poised on the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> verge of a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> major break in what I think is so far a stagnation. The
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> potential of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the internet is clear - and everyone is aware that it's
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> potential is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> more than just human readable web pages. We all feel it,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> business has
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> been preparing (somewhat) for it, and the engineers all
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> want to build
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> However, this level of information integration won't
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> happen unless:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> a) the path to implementation of standards based
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> messaging between
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> partner, or producer/consumer, applications, is very clear
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> b) all players involved in complex processes can participate
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> c) the integration effort doesn't involve such a long,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> drawn out
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> mapping effort everytime (this kills progress on the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> entire
>>>>
>>>>>>> movement)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The industry will continue to stall until we solve some
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> of these
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> problems. I would like to help by completing the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> patterns and the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> catalog of patterns, and publish the use cases to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> describe
>>>>
>>>>>>> it. There
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> also needs to be a major outreach effort to all industry
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> groups that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> are building shared business processes (which by the way, look
>>>>>>>>> much more complex than simple request-response models).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That's it, I guess....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>> 313.930.5323
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Monica J. Martin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>> On a related point (to ebSOA that is), previously Matt
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> MacKenzie was
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> the ebSOA representative to the ebXML-jc. Perhaps you
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> could provide
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> some insight into your overall vision of the ebSOA TC
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> based on its
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> original charter. I've asked Jamie Clark to give an
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> update
>>>>
>>>>>>> on ebSOA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and SOA TC efforts. In the past, it was anticipated that
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ebSOA would
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> assist in defining the next generation architecture
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> for
>>>>
>>>>>>> ebXML. Your
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>>> john c hardin
>>>>>>>>> sanghainteractive.com
>>>>>>>>> 313.930.5323 cell
>>>>>>>>> mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> in
>>>>
>>>>>>> the image
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> of a global village."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>> john c hardin
>>>>>>> sanghainteractive.com
>>>>>>> 313.930.5323 cell
>>>>>>> mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> in the image
>>>>
>>>>>>> of a global village."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~
>>>> john c hardin
>>>> sanghainteractive.com
>>>> 313.930.5323 cell
>>>> mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com
>>>>
>>>> "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in the image
>>>> of a global village."
>>>>
>>>> Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
--
~~~~~~~~~
john c hardin
sanghainteractive.com
313.930.5323 cell
mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com
"The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in the image of
a global village."
Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962
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