RE: [chairs] Membership for open source implementers

["Gabe Wachob" <gabe.wachob@amsoft.net>]

Was that fact made public? 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mischkinsky [mailto:jeff.mischkinsky@oracle.com]
> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 10:22 AM
> To: Paul Fremantle
> Cc: Scott McGrath; 'Gabe Wachob'; Eduardo.Gutentag@Sun.COM;
> chairs@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: Re: [chairs] Membership for open source implementers
> 
> I know of one instance where a TC was populated by individuals who
> had their fees paid for them.
>      -jeff
> On Apr 06, 2007, at 9:32 AM, Paul Fremantle wrote:
> 
> > Scott
> >
> > While no-one has paid multiple individuals to join TCs, I know of
> > several companies have populated TCs with a large number of
> > members, most of whom only speak up at a vote or at rollcall, so I
> > don't think its beyond the bounds of belief.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > Scott McGrath wrote:
> >> Gabe,
> >> At some level, many members are here because their peers, partners,
> >> suppliers or customers have encouraged them to join OASIS.  But we
> >> have not
> >> witnessed any situation where a member thinks so strongly of their
> >> cause as
> >> to directly encourage them with their checkbook in a "buying
> >> plurality" way.
> >> Could it happen, I suppose.  Is it likely?  I don't know.  I do
> >> know that
> >> I'd like to hear from any members who *have* convinced their
> >> management to
> >> pay several member fees, because we might learn some interesting
> >> sales
> >> techniques ;-)
> >> Going forward...
> >> We should move this dialogue to member-discuss@lists.oasis-
> >> open.org. I can
> >> add an announcement to the next Member news that this dialogue is
> >> there now
> >> and every member (not the subset that are chairs) can share their
> >> views on
> >> this.   Scott...
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Gabe Wachob [mailto:gabe.wachob@amsoft.net]
> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 8:51 PM
> >>> To: 'Scott McGrath'; Eduardo.Gutentag@Sun.COM; chairs@lists.oasis-
> >>> open.org
> >>> Subject: RE: [chairs] Membership for open source implementers
> >>>
> >>> Eduardo, Scott, et al:
> >>>
> >>> OK, so taking my alternative, does anyone see a risk of a company
> >>> astroturfing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing) a TC by
> >>> paying for
> >>> individual memberships for individuals acting under their "command"?
> >>>
> >>> Am I just paranoid? The point of the TC process was to avoid process
> >>> manipulation, and to maximize transparency. I'd like to enable
> >>> open source
> >>> implementer participation in as transparent a way as possible,
> >>> but it feels
> >>> broken for me (as a OASIS member) to be able to pay for someone
> >>> else's
> >>> participation and not be required to disclose that fact.
> >>>
> >>> 	-Gabe
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Scott McGrath [mailto:scott.mcgrath@oasis-open.org]
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 4:00 PM
> >>>> To: 'Gabe Wachob'; Eduardo.Gutentag@Sun.COM; chairs@lists.oasis-
> >>>> open.org
> >>>> Subject: RE: [chairs] Membership for open source implementers
> >>>>
> >>>> Gabe, Eduardo, All,
> >>>>
> >>>> OASIS doesn't have an "Invited Expert" but does have something
> >>>> of similar
> >>>> net effect -
> >>>>
> >>>> A TC Chair can advocate for a free membership for someone who
> >>>> cannot
> >>>> afford
> >>>> to share the financial burden of supporting the OASIS
> >>>> infrastructure,
> >>>> someone who is an important technical asset.  Patrick can grant a
> >>>> complimentary membership - which I pay for from my budget.
> >>>> (There are
> >>>> accounting reasons for not just giving away membership, but not
> >>>> to bore
> >>>> you
> >>>> with accounting practices here)  alternatively, our Member
> >>>> Sections can
> >>>> also
> >>>> use some of their budget to serve their market needs by paying for
> >>>> memberships of someone one might deem as an expert.
> >>>>
> >>>> I should point out that the budget for such things is justifiably
> >>> limited,
> >>>> and probably ranges around a dozen in total.  I'd also point out
> >>>> that the
> >>>> Individual class of membership (Individuals and Associates) is
> >>>> deeply
> >>>> subsidized.  These are hundreds of members who willingly pay
> >>>> something
> >>>> (approximately 1/2 our cost per member to operate) willingly,
> >>>> because
> >>> they
> >>>> do want to help support the overhead.  So in essence, one might
> >>>> argue in
> >>>> terms of finite budgets, we can support two Individuals at the
> >>>> same cost
> >>>> as
> >>>> 1 complimentary member.
> >>>>
> >>>> As Eduardo points out, the Individual membership is an
> >>>> extraordinary
> >>>> bargain, and an option not offered by many organizations that do
> >>>> offer
> >>>> some
> >>>> "Invited Expert" memberships.  I'm jaded by proximity, but I am
> >>>> proud
> >>> that
> >>>> we can enable hundreds of Individual members at a cost that is
> >>>> reasonable
> >>>> for them.  I am proud of the operational efficiency of OASIS and
> >>>> how
> >>>> effectively our members share resources of time and financial
> >>>> support.
> >>>>
> >>>> You know that as a non-profit, we balance revenue with
> >>>> operations costs.
> >>>> I
> >>>> am inclined to seek more revenue so we can provide more services
> >>>> to more
> >>>> members--because there is nearly an infinite amount of work we
> >>>> can do in
> >>>> support of the OASIS mission.  That said, we are working with
> >>>> your dues,
> >>>> so
> >>>> we are open to your guidance on where to spend more of it ;-)
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks, I'll step off the soapbox now.
> >>>>
> >>>> Scott...
> >>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Gabe Wachob [mailto:gabe.wachob@amsoft.net]
> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 6:20 PM
> >>>>> To: Eduardo.Gutentag@Sun.COM; chairs@lists.oasis-open.org
> >>>>> Subject: RE: [chairs] Membership for open source implementers
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Two things:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1) OASIS used to have "invited experts" - I was one a number of
> >>>>> years
> >>> ago
> >>>>> (though I think the "expert" tag was maybe misapplied to me ;).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2) Eduardo, I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not saying
> >>>>> that any
> >>>>> individual can show up and say they are an implementer and
> >>>>> become a
> >>>> member
> >>>>> for free. I'm talking about people who have demonstrated to the
> >>>>> TC their
> >>>>> willingness to contribute to the TC's body of work in ways
> >>>>> which don't
> >>>>> involve paying money to OASIS. The point here is that we (at
> >>>>> least our
> >>>> TC)
> >>>>> need to support open source implementations to the fullest extent
> >>>> possible,
> >>>>> and where the implementer is an individual and not getting paid
> >>>>> for
> >>> their
> >>>>> implementation by an employer or other party, we're effectively
> >>>>> pushing
> >>>>> them
> >>>>> away from our work. Bad Idea, if you ask me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It sounds like the answer you are proposing is "have someone in
> >>>>> the TC
> >>>> pay
> >>>>> for that person's membership" - which is definitely one
> >>>>> solution. But I
> >>>>> think it raises issues about transparency and independence of TC
> >>>>> membership.
> >>>>> But if that's the way OASIS makes us do it, then I guess that's
> >>>>> the way
> >>>>> we'd
> >>>>> do it...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 	-Gabe
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Eduardo.Gutentag@Sun.COM [mailto:Eduardo.Gutentag@Sun.COM]
> >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 3:07 PM
> >>>>>> To: chairs@lists.oasis-open.org
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [chairs] Membership for open source implementers
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ken is right, "invited expert" does not exist in OASIS, that
> >>>>>> is W3C
> >>>>>> parlance.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - anybody can read the email of the TC through the archives (yes,
> >>> there
> >>>>> is
> >>>>>> a slight delay and it's a pull not push system, but hey, it's
> >>>> gratis...)
> >>>>>> - anybody can send comments to the TC through the comment
> >>>>>> mechanism,
> >>>>> which
> >>>>>> means they first have to agree (and be legally bound by their
> >>>> agreement)
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>> whatever IPR they contribute to the TC is offered under the
> >>>>>> same IPR
> >>>> mode
> >>>>>> as the TC.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So now you know what $300 buys you.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As to the argument that "for someone doing good
> >>>>>> work that benefits the OASIS community, it seems odd that we'd
> >>>>>> throw
> >>>>>> a barrier up for them to contribute even more directly.", hm,
> >>>>>> since
> >>>>>> we all are doing work that benefits the OASIS community, why
> >>>>>> don't we
> >>>>>> just eliminate fees for all?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Just kidding...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 04/05/2007 02:44 PM, G. Ken Holman wrote:
> >>>>>>> I'm not so quick to just let any project committer participate
> >>> unless
> >>>>>>> they are first obliged to adhere to the OASIS membership
> >>>>>>> agreement.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I don't think money is the issue ... I think intellectual
> >>>>>>> property
> >>>>>>> rights are more important.  Contributions to the committees
> >>>>>>> have to
> >>>> be
> >>>>>>> unencumbered and the OASIS membership agreement attempts to
> >>>>>>> address
> >>>>>> this.
> >>>>>>> Preventing people from just "joining our list and
> >>>>>>> contributing" is
> >>>> not
> >>>>>>> at all absurd.  As a committee chair I want to ensure
> >>>>>>> contributions,
> >>>>>>> through the membership agreement, are acceptable to use without
> >>>>>>> burdening the chair to any due diligence.  The due diligence is
> >>>> covered
> >>>>>>> off by the agreement.  Legal experts have covered all this in
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> membership terms and I don't want to have to be in a position to
> >>>>>>> interpret them personally ... that is clearly not my expertise.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> BTW, where in http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/
> >>>>>>> process.php is
> >>>>>>> "invited expert" defined?  I was unaware of Gabe's assertion
> >>>>>>> that
> >>>> such
> >>>>> a
> >>>>>>> concept exists in OASIS parlance.  How do committees identify,
> >>>> qualify
> >>>>>>> and accredit such experts without obligating them under the
> >>>> membership
> >>>>>>> rules?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I hope these comments are considered constructive.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> . . . . . . . . . . . . Ken  (Code List Representation TC Chair)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> At 2007-04-05 22:30 +0100, Paul Fremantle wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Gabe
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I completely agree. I think that any committer on any project
> >>>> actively
> >>>>>>>> implementing an OASIS specification under an OSI license
> >>>>>>>> should be
> >>>>>>>> able to apply for a Open Source Membership free-of-charge.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Personally I don't think this is going to cost OASIS any
> >>>>>>>> loss of
> >>>>>>>> income, but it certainly will encourage a wider view of OASIS
> >>>>>> standards.
> >>>>>>>> Paul
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Gabe Wachob wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Hi Chairs-
> >>>>>>>>>             This is a topic that's come up for us I think
> >>>>>>>>> at least
> >>>>>>>>> twice. We have a community member (not an OASIS member) who is
> >>>>>>>>> actively implementing our specification (XRI) and is
> >>>>>>>>> interested in
> >>>>>>>>> the spec discussion. However, we can't let them join our
> >>>>>>>>> list and
> >>>>>>>>> contribute because they have to be an OASIS member. So the
> >>>>>>>>> only
> >>>>>>>>> answer we can give them is "pay $300 to participate".
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>             This seems absurd. Their implementation of our
> >>>>>>>>> spec is
> >>>>>>>>> one of the most valuable contributions to the TC's work at
> >>>>>>>>> this
> >>>> point
> >>>>>>>>> in the lifecycle of the spec. Their feedback on implementation
> >>>> issues
> >>>>>>>>> and recommendations for how to adjust the spec are absolutely
> >>>>>>>>> critical. And yet, they are left out of the conversation. The
> >>>> thought
> >>>>>>>>> of forcing them to pay $300 to participate seems a bit
> >>>>>>>>> ludicrous,
> >>>>>>>>> since they are already contributing (in this case, as an
> >>> individual
> >>>>>>>>> on their own time).
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>             OASIS has a concept of "invited expert". Could
> >>>>>>>>> there
> >>> be
> >>>> a
> >>>>>>>>> new category of "invited open source implementer"? As I've
> >>>>>>>>> said
> >>>> many
> >>>>>>>>> times before, I think OASIS should be trying to facilitate
> >>>>>>>>> Open
> >>>>>>>>> Source implementations of the Open Standards it produces to
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> maximum extent it can (and to the extent its TC's wish that to
> >>>> allow
> >>>>>>>>> Open Source - but that's a different discussion). You may
> >>>>>>>>> think
> >>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> $300 a year is a trivial amount of money, but for someone
> >>>>>>>>> doing
> >>>> good
> >>>>>>>>> work that benefits the OASIS community, it seems odd that we'd
> >>>> throw
> >>>>>>>>> a barrier up for them to contribute even more directly.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>             I'm sure any potential abuse could be managed,
> >>>>>>>>> just
> >>>> like
> >>>>>>>>> I assume it's managed for the "invited expert" category.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>             Alternatively, I suppose the membership of the TC
> >>> could
> >>>>>>>>> "chip in" for membership of the open source implementer,
> >>>>>>>>> but this
> >>>>>>>>> seems like a "hack" that raises some questions about
> >>>>>>>>> independence
> >>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> participation and potential appearance of manipulation of the
> >>>>>>>>> membership.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>             -Gabe
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Paul Fremantle
> >>>>>>>> VP/Technical Sales, WSO2
> >>>>>>>> OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
> >>>>>>>> paul@wso2.com
> >>>>>>>> (646) 290 8050
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> World-wide corporate, govt. & user group XML, XSL and UBL
> >>>>>>> training
> >>>>>>> RSS feeds:     publicly-available developer resources and
> >>>>>>> training
> >>>>>>> G. Ken Holman
> >>>>>>> mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com
> >>>>>>> Crane Softwrights Ltd.          http://
> >>>>>>> www.CraneSoftwrights.com/o/
> >>>>>>> Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0    +1(613)489-0999
> >>>>>>> (F:-0995)
> >>>>>>> Male Cancer Awareness Aug'05  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/
> >>>>>>> o/bc
> >>>>>>> Legal business disclaimers:  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/
> >>>>>>> legal
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Eduardo Gutentag        |    e-mail: eduardo.gutentag@Sun.COM
> >>>>>> Technology Director     |    Phone:  +1 510 550 4616 (internal
> >>>>>> x31442)
> >>>>>> Corporate Standards     |    Sun Microsystems Inc.
> >>>>>>              W3C AC Rep / W3C AB / OASIS BoD
> >
> > --
> > Paul Fremantle
> > VP/Technical Sales, WSO2
> > OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
> >
> > http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
> > paul@wso2.com
> > (646) 290 8050
> >
> > "Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
> >
> 
> --
> Jeff Mischkinsky
> 	jeff.mischkinsky@oracle.com
> Director, Oracle Fusion Middleware and Web Services Standards	+1(650)
> 506-1975
> Consulting Member Technical Staff           			500 Oracle
> Parkway, M/
> S 4OP9
> Oracle
Redwood Shores, CA
> 94065